19-10-2003 10:28									#1
	Why do Asian people have trouble saying r's and l's? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

When I ask people this they always say that it is because they don't have those sounds in their alphabet so they never speak them, therefore those muscles aren't developed. But what about adopted Asian kids that never learn their native language and learn English just like the average Caucasian? Many of them still have a hard to saying r's and l's. I don't understand how an ethnicity could evolve to say certain consonant sounds. It doesn't seem to me like a factor in natural selection.

	19-10-2003 10:30									#2
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John, you need to go to some bigger cities to hang out for a while. I believe your sample is too small.

	19-10-2003 10:33									#3
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Well, I used to live in Seattle, and some Asian people say their r's and l's just fine, but a lot of them have trouble saying them even though they only learn English.

	19-10-2003 10:37									#4
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http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=99533

	19-10-2003 10:44									#5
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Yeah I just read that thread-except it says:

quote: “Those who have a short frenulum (a strap of tissue linking the tongue to the floor of the mouth) can face problems pronouncing some characters due to a disturbance in lateral movements of the tongue,” said Bae Jung-ho, an oral surgeon at Seoul’s Yonsei Severance Hospital, who operated on the six-year-old last month.

Those who have a short frenulum have trouble pronouncing some characters, and the Koreans are getting there frenulum shortened to make it sound more American. So that means that the Europeans, who have a shorter frenulum to begin with, have problems pronouncing some characters. That doesn't explain why Asians, who have a longer frenulum, can't pronounce l's or r's.

And why do Asians have a longer frenulum? How is it a factor in natural selection?

	19-10-2003 11:05									#6
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Why do Americans have trouble speaking any language other than English correctly?

[/flame]

	19-10-2003 11:32									#7
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those who are adopted since birth and lived in US speak english just fine.

Why can't spanish adopted americans roll spanish accetns as well as spanish ppl?

	19-10-2003 11:33									#8
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I'm not making fun of them, I just want to know.

And it's because we don't need to. There isn't an opportunity for most Americans to speak another language often. And, now they are starting to teach othert languages. In California I hear they are requiring that students take Spanish.

	19-10-2003 11:35									#9
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wow nevermind.

	19-10-2003 11:37									#10
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quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod And why do Asians have a longer frenulum? How is it a factor in natural selection?

It isn't. You should think the other way around. A trait that is not selected against will remain in the population.

Regarding the language thing, don't you think it would be silly to develop a language that uses sounds that most people can't pronounce properly

	19-10-2003 11:49									#11
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quote: But what about adopted Asian kids that never learn their native language and learn English just like the average Caucasian? Many of them still have a hard to saying r's and l's.

What the **** are you talking about?

quote: those who are adopted since birth and lived in US speak english just fine.

I thought this was a well known fact, but I guess not.

	19-10-2003 11:51									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid It isn't. You should think the other way around. A trait that is not selected against will remain in the population. Regarding the language thing, don't you think it would be silly to develop a language that uses sounds that most people can't pronounce properly

You mean like Swedish?

	19-10-2003 11:52									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I thought this was a well known fact, but I guess not.

it is. But it seems to me, that johnmccelod isnt aware of this at all.

	19-10-2003 11:54									#14
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This reminds of the time someone asked my half-Japanese friend, who grew up on an air force base in Okinawa and spent most of junior high and high school in Nebraska, how he learned English...

	19-10-2003 12:00									#15
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I don't understand it. My first language was Chinese, but I learned English just fine. I can also speak with an English, Australian, Spanish, French, Texan, New York - whatever accent, no problem. It doesn't seem that hard to me. I guess it's how hard you try, or maybe what accent the voices in your head are using.

	19-10-2003 12:03									#16
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quote: I guess it's how hard you try, or maybe what accent the voices in your head are using.

Unfortunately, mine all speak in Finnish. Not the most useful language...

	19-10-2003 12:04									#17
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Sure it is. You're the only one who can Finnish what they're saying.

*ducks the shoe

	19-10-2003 12:05									#18
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk You mean like Swedish?

Nah, Swedish is a simple language to master:

-Far, får får får?
-Får får inte får, får får lamm!

	19-10-2003 12:06									#19
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quote: Sure it is. You're the only one who can Finnish what they're saying.

I hope, for your sake, that the voices in your head came up with that god awful pun, not you.

	19-10-2003 12:09									#20
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I always blame the voices.

Although I'm still secretly pleased with how truly awful that one was.

	19-10-2003 12:12									#21
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quote: Although I'm still secretly pleased with how truly awful that one was.

You did achieve greatness with that one, in a "oh god, what have I just unleashed upon the world?" kind of way.

	19-10-2003 12:28									#22
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That was indeed a bona fide stinkeroo. I gotta work on those...

	19-10-2003 13:16									#23
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Why can Caucasians never get the tones right in Chinese?

	19-10-2003 19:43									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Neutrino Why can Caucasians never get the tones right in Chinese?

Many do! Actually, the tones are quite simple to pronounce! What's hard is remembering which tone to use with which word.

Asians may have problems with "L" and "R" sounds which do not appear in their native tongues, but the reverse is also true. I'm pretty good at mimicking sounds, but two Chinese sounds (not found in English) are very difficult for me to say correctly, no matter how much I practice - the vowel sounds in "xue" (as in "xuexi" - "study") and the "u" with two dots over it (as in "luse", or "green"). Other English-speakers often have similar problems.

	19-10-2003 19:55									#25
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quote: But what about adopted Asian kids that never learn their native language and learn English just like the average Caucasian? Many of them still have a hard to saying r's and l's. I don't understand how an ethnicity could evolve to say certain consonant sounds. It doesn't seem to me like a factor in natural selection.

could be that they were adopted after they learned a bit of korean.

why would i suggest this, and why would i think what you said is utter bunk?

i'm asian-american. naturally, that makes me have lots of asian-american friends and acquaintances. at least 80% were born here in the states, and 60% of us were born here, in the south, 40% in the north. thus, we're all american citizens.

all of us speak our native asian languages at home.

none of us have trouble distinguishing or making l and r sounds. only our parents do.

	20-10-2003 01:36									#26
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q cubed hit it. half of my friends speak chinese and are first gen americans...and can speak english well.

	20-10-2003 01:55									#27
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He's confusing an accent with a speech impediment. Most people have an accent depending upon where you grew up, what country it was in, and which language you learned first.

	20-10-2003 01:56									#28
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ghooost face killwa

we wuv woooo!!!

	20-10-2003 02:02									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin He's confusing an accent with a speech impediment. Most people have an accent depending upon where you grew up, what country it was in, and which language you learned first.

That's made me think of an odd thing. I notice that my first cousins pronounce Chinese words differently than I do, even though my dad and their dad are brothers. I would have thought that they'd pronounce words the same way, since my dad and his brother grew up together.

Particularly the 'l' and 'r' sounds - where I pronounce Chinese words that have the 'r' sound (like the word for sun or day or meat) with something that sounds more like 'r', they pronounce it with an 'l' sound.

And we were all born here in the states at around the same time, and we all learned Chinese first.

	20-10-2003 02:27									#30
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Why do American people have trouble rolling their Rs?