20-10-2003 14:56									#61
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It's all the fault of the Greek PM, Kostas Simitis.

Simitis and Blair are both memebers of the European Socialist Party. We will be having elections in Greece in April and only a miracle could keep the right-wing opposition party from getting elected. Simitis met with Blair the day before he fell ill and asked him if he could do him a favor and help bring the Parthenon sculptures (the ones at the British Museum) back to Athens, before the 2004 Olympics and before the elections too, as this would give a boost to his party. Unfortunately for him, a camera caught this conversation and he was humiliated to the Greek public.

Well I bet Blair noticed this humiliation and this reminded him of the fact that he too must face an election in 2004, which, seeing as public discontent over Iraq, the scandals, privatized companies, etc is continuously piling up, he will probably lose. To make things worse, he can't go ask any of his buddies for help with a straight face. Chiefly because he has only one left, Dubya, and second, what's he going to ask for? London Bridge?

That's when he started feeling ill....

	20-10-2003 14:59									#62
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Uh...a few points.

Blair probably won't face an election in 2004.

He'll only lose if he has credible opposition. At the moment, he hasn't.

	20-10-2003 15:05									#63
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Oh no the greek public think badly of the UK PM, he's gonna lose alot of sleep over that.

What scandals are there with privatised companies. Unless you mean the trains, but there incompetent rather than scandalous

	20-10-2003 15:42									#64
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The way he's organised the NHS is pretty murderous too.

Still, It was a bit foolish to wish him death. Just break his hip and leave him to fester like the commoners he ignores on World fellatio tours.

	20-10-2003 16:06									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp I think you've either been driven insane by the inflexibility of your own logic, or never possessed a sense of proportion to start with. Whether you agreed with his policies or not, it takes a surreal leap to label him a "war criminal". Particularly since his military actions have been confined to rather monstrous regimes with genuinely appalling human rights records. If your personal set of principles means that such regimes should be left to continue the slaughter with nary more than a docking of their allowance, then your personal set of principles are not ones I would touch with a very long and very shitty stick.

I don't think killing innocent people is cool, or justified, unless their government is directly threatening you.

Every Iraqi killed was not justified by the U.N. Legally it's pretty easy, except that the U.S. and Britian are powerful enough to get away with it. And keep your bloody hands off of my principles, thanks.

	20-10-2003 16:29									#66
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Whether the war was legal or moral are infact 2 diffrenent issues.

The UK's declaration of war on Germany in WW2 was arguably illegal.

	20-10-2003 18:30									#67
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why?

	20-10-2003 18:49									#68
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Well I think it was legal, but you could argue that there was no direct threat to the UK and threfore they had no business in declaring war against Germany. Now I don't hink its a very good argument but I think it is arguable legally.

	20-10-2003 18:55									#69
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Tony is a trooper. He'll be fine, I'm sure.

	20-10-2003 19:04									#70
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Britain was bound to a protection pledge to Poland. Thus, the declaration of war of Great Britain (and France, for that matter) against Germany was legal. Although they didn't do **** to actually help out Poland, and hence broke their promise.

Get well soon, Blair, and then get the hell out of your office!

	20-10-2003 19:13									#71
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Well I think it was legal, but you could argue that there was no direct threat to the UK and threfore they had no business in declaring war against Germany. Now I don't hink its a very good argument but I think it is arguable legally.

I could be wrong, but I think pre war treaty between Poland, France and the UK meant war would be declared automatically if Poland was invaded from West or East.

As for Tony Blair - he's a slippery spinning sort of politician, but I must admit I prefer him to the alternatives.

So I hope he gets better quick. Anyway, think of all the publicity devoted to him that could have been devoted to war casualties in the Middle East...

	20-10-2003 19:24									#72
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You are right about the treaty of course but, it can be argued that the treaty itself is not a good enough legal reason for going to war, if( and this is of course a big If) you are not threatened yourself.

The point I am making is there is no definition of when declaring war is legal, other than in self defense which is a bit redundant anyway as you have already been attacked.

	20-10-2003 19:26									#73
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger As he dosen't want to resurect a class war he is seen as shallow.

One doesn't "resurrect class war." It is always being waged, sometimes openly, sometimes not, but it is always going on. Those for whom the Right work are constantly engaged in a process of trying to squeeze the other classes. When they talk about engaging in the politics of class war, they never mean themselves. They are engaging in what are known as psyops, getting the other side to surrender without fighting. The results of this surrender can be seen in our crumbling social infrastructure and decline in wages and benefits and input.

Tony Blair, aside from being a war criminal, is a quisling of labor. Worse than Benedict Arnold, who simply surendered, Blair surrendered and is administrating the leftovers. Maybe a comparison to Marshall Petain would be better?

NeoOmega, my coments weern't directed towards you, but towards my fellow leftists. We already know that Libertarians have no respect for human life and dignity.

	20-10-2003 19:27									#74
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Yes, but just because things are "illegal" doesn't stop them from happening, does it?

	20-10-2003 19:28									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse why?

Because they signed a treaty outlawing war.

	20-10-2003 19:34									#76
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Chegitz, to whom has Tony Blair surrenderd and what has he surrendered.

Maybe he just belives that there are better ways of delivering fairness than redistribution of wealth and the state control of property. Of cousre betrayl is one of the lefts favourite insults.

(I can't believe I'm sticking up for him like this)

	20-10-2003 19:41									#77
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Chegitz, to whom has Tony Blair surrenderd and what has he surrendered.

#1, he took control of Labour away from the very unions who founded it.

	20-10-2003 19:52									#78
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The unions founded it over 100 years ago, why should they have a greater say over policy than ordinary members.

He brought democracy to the party, of course it is far better to be controlled by a few leaders of a handful of unions

	20-10-2003 19:54									#79
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quote: Originally posted by NeOmega I don't think killing innocent people is cool, or justified, unless their government is directly threatening you. Every Iraqi killed was not justified by the U.N. Legally it's pretty easy, except that the U.S. and Britian are powerful enough to get away with it. And keep your bloody hands off of my principles, thanks.

Uh huh. So if Germany hadn't invaded Poland in 1939, and had kept the holocaust within it's own borders, should we have sat on the sidelines wringing our hands in dismay?

If you ever look for a new handle, "Pontius Pilate" would be my tip.

	20-10-2003 20:58									#80
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He always seems so healthy and robust. I'm suprised to hear this.

Get well soon Tony.

	21-10-2003 03:35									#81
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quote: Uh huh. So if Germany hadn't invaded Poland in 1939, and had kept the holocaust within it's own borders, should we have sat on the sidelines wringing our hands in dismay?

In 1939, nobody was thinking of the Jews. The Holocaust was something that very few people, even among the German Jews themselved, believed that could ever happen. The full extent of the Holocaust was discovered when the first death camps were liberated.

	21-10-2003 12:34									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Uh huh. So if Germany hadn't invaded Poland in 1939, and had kept the holocaust within it's own borders, should we have sat on the sidelines wringing our hands in dismay? If you ever look for a new handle, "Pontius Pilate" would be my tip.

Hitler.... Blah blah blah Hitler.... Bla blah bla blah blah blah Hitler..... .ble ble blah....Nazi..... Blah ble blah blah .....Nazi..... bleh blah blah.....Nazi....., blah blah blah Halocaust ble ble blah blah Halocaust blah bla Halocaust.

Fill the blahs with Tony Blair, George Bush, Rumsfeld and see I can play that asinine game too.

Surely you can do better than that.

Pontius Pilate... I like that. He had the sense to stay out of a relgious debate.

	21-10-2003 21:48									#83
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Answer the question, tosser.

	22-10-2003 01:26									#84
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Laz, that's a no-brainer. Most libertarians think that US getting involved in WWII, even when the Nazis did invade other countries, was wrong and criminal. Obviously, if it was in happening in the borders of sovereign Germany, this is none of the world community's bussiness.

	22-10-2003 08:49									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Answer the question, tosser.

OK, history lesson. Germany did not just sit on it's hands. It actually did go out for world domination. So I would have been all for dealing with Nazi Germany. Deal with reality, not hypotheticals.

quote: Laz, that's a no-brainer. Most libertarians think that US getting involved in WWII, even when the Nazis did invade other countries, was wrong and criminal. Obviously, if it was in happening in the borders of sovereign Germany, this is none of the world community's bussiness.

No, "most" Libertarians do not think this way. A select few. I'll have you know a good percentage of libertarians wrote letters to the editor in our party newsletter urging support for the gulf war.

Also, as axi said, and I hate wasting my time pointing this out to ignorant "nazi tossers", but the Jewish extermination amps were largely unknown until the end of the war.

	22-10-2003 08:52									#86
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My turn to say Nazi now, since you didn't get my point.

So if America were to next invade Syria or Iran, would it not be the duty of the world to declare war on us, since it would be just like Britain stepping aside as Hitler invaded Poland after already aggressively taking Czechoslovakia ?

	22-10-2003 11:12									#87
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If they invaded with no reason, there would be just reason for restrictions.

However, saying that, I do not think the US will invade Syria or Iran without good reason, and will wait for some semblance of an international disgrace to come from Syria/Iran.

Incredibly enough, Bush and co are not like Hitler. They do not want to murder 6,000,000 arabs. They have elections to think about.

You can't put 1939 perspectives in 2003 issues. Moron.

	22-10-2003 11:14									#88
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quote: Get well soon, Blair, and then get the hell out of your office!

You want to condemn Britain to five years of IDS? Have you no sympathy?

	22-10-2003 11:19									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Laz, that's a no-brainer. Most libertarians think that US getting involved in WWII, even when the Nazis did invade other countries, was wrong and criminal. Obviously, if it was in happening in the borders of sovereign Germany, this is none of the world community's bussiness.

Do you have anything to back up your assertion that most Libertarians think this way? I thought not.

	22-10-2003 11:23									#90
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And those cheering him to die are out of line IMO. I don't particularly like the man, but he certainly doesn't deserve to die for any of his actions that I've heard of. If you disagree with him, much better that you hope that Britain "wakes up" and tossed him out at election time. Having him die just increases sympathy for him, and to some extent his policies.