21-10-2003 07:33									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit Yavoon is it an impression of mine or you just can't avoid posting stupid things

argue less, whine more. is that the new recipe?

	21-10-2003 08:29									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Show me the article that the NY Times writes about this study (if they bother) and perhaps we can take some actual information from it and have a discussion.

Ask and ye shell receive:

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/news...lity-brain.html

	21-10-2003 08:48									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich Ask and ye shell receive: http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/news...lity-brain.html

Funny, I read the NYT earler today and didn't see it there. Reading it now. Btw, that was one of my favorite bible verses when I was a kid.


%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Arghh, you bastage! That's the same crap Reuters article. Very funny.

	21-10-2003 10:14									#34
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From the original paper:

quote: The classic view of brain sexual differentiation and behavior is that gonadal steroid hormones act directly to promote sex differences in neural and behavioral development. In particular, the actions of testosterone and its metabolites induce a masculine pattern of brain development, while inhibiting feminine neural and behavioral patterns of differentiation. However, recent evidence indicates that gonadal hormones may not solely be responsible for sex differences in brain development and behavior between males and females. Here we examine an alternative hypothesis that genes, by directly inducing sexually dimorphic patterns of neural development, can influence the sexual differences between male and female brains. Using microarrays and RT-PCR, we have detected over 50 candidate genes for differential sex expression, and confirmed at least seven murine genes which show differential expression between the developing brains of male and female mice at stage 10.5 days post coitum (dpc), before any gonadal hormone influence. The identification of genes differentially expressed between male and female brains prior to gonadal formation suggests that genetic factors may have roles in influencing brain sexual differentiation.

Yeah, lots of talk about homosexuality here

	21-10-2003 10:16									#35
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I think genes determine sexuality most of the time

There are rare cases though when it's a choice.

Such as how it's "cool" right now to be a lesbian

	21-10-2003 10:18									#36
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Combat Ingrid: How does sexual development not include discussions about homosexuality?

And that's only the abstract.

	21-10-2003 10:21									#37
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my thing is this

how could it NOT be genetics

i got my first hard on at age 3

I remember checking out some lady in a dress.

I had no idea why I liked her but but I mean damn she had some nice legs on her.

	21-10-2003 10:22									#38
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quote: Such as how it's "cool" right now to be a lesbian

Right now? It's ALWAYS cool to be a lesbian (or rather bi )

	21-10-2003 10:24									#39
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The only thing shown in this article is that different genes are active in developing male and female mouse brains. These genes may or may not be important in determining sexuality, but that has yet to be investigated.

I think it's a very interesting topic, but one should be very careful not to jump to conclusions after limited studies like this one.

	21-10-2003 10:26									#40
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oh you are so gay

	21-10-2003 10:34									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich Ok, this question needs to be asked...so I'll ask it. If this study is true, then I have no choice to be who and what I am...so on this same line of thought, how can homosexuality be wrong (or a sin for that matter)? Wittlich waits for Ben to walk in...

Unfortunately, this kind of study will have no effect on social acceptance of homosexuality. The only thing it will do is change the terms by which homosexuality is condemned. It will now be seen as a birth defect.

	21-10-2003 10:46									#43
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quote: Of course it is more rational to believe that we were created from clay and spit

How is this so different from soup?

Wittlich, I will reply when I get home.

	21-10-2003 10:53									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Wittlich, I will reply when I get home.

My money is on the "God is testing you" explanation...

	21-10-2003 12:42									#45
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this is what I thought

goes in the face of what some say (that there is no such thing as men and women, gay and straight)

Jon Miller

	21-10-2003 13:43									#46
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Even if it could be shown that there were a gene for homosexuality, it does not mean that all who inherit the gene will act as homosexuals. In fact, it is a requirement that the gene does not predetermine behavior in order for the gene to propagate.

Suppose the gene made 100% of all who had the gene exclusively homosexual? The gene would simply die out and fail to propagate. Therefore, there must need to be some wiggle room, either not everyone with the gene was homosexual, in the case of a recessive gene, or the gene merely influences behavior, and the urges can be controlled.

Therefore, even if the gene exists, it must also allow for people to control their behavior.

Did you win, Rufus?

	21-10-2003 14:47									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Even if it could be shown that there were a gene for homosexuality, it does not mean that all who inherit the gene will act as homosexuals. In fact, it is a requirement that the gene does not predetermine behavior in order for the gene to propagate. Suppose the gene made 100% of all who had the gene exclusively homosexual? The gene would simply die out and fail to propagate. Therefore, there must need to be some wiggle room, either not everyone with the gene was homosexual, in the case of a recessive gene, or the gene merely influences behavior, and the urges can be controlled. Therefore, even if the gene exists, it must also allow for people to control their behavior. Did you win, Rufus?

Why yes, I think I did. Or at least I got close.

Obviously there's always some room for changing behavior, as closeted homosexuals have proven throughout history and continue to prove. The real question is, why should you strive to overcome behavior that you are hard-wired for? We would all agree now, I think, that forcing a left-handed child to cultivate right-handedness is misguided, if not cruel; to do so because we perceive left-handedness as evil (as some ancient societies did) is, at best, loopy.

I don't want to dump on Christianity, which I consider to be a beautiful religion in many of its particulars. But a God who deliberately codes people at the genetic level for behavior that He Himself abhors, just to see how much faith they actually have, is a sadistic monster. If that's who you're saying your God is, I'd be interested to know how you can keep from considering Him monsterous. If that's not who you're saying you're God is, then I guess I'm not sure how you'r reconciling this study with a conservative Christian perspective.

	21-10-2003 14:55									#48
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quote: They found 54 genes produced in different amounts in male and female mouse brains, prior to hormonal influence

WWWWWWWAIIIIIIT. wait wait wait wait wait. WTF? "genes produced in different amounts"?

	21-10-2003 14:59									#49
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Azazel: read the abstract I posted, it's more scientific

	21-10-2003 15:06									#50
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I don't understand. Do this genes make you prefer girls or boys? that makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.

	21-10-2003 15:12									#51
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They may do. But it is certainly far from proven. Anyway, it's interesting stuff

	21-10-2003 15:47									#52
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Combat Ingrid:

I am a layman, but if I understand your abstract the study basically says:

"- We knew already there were differences between the brains of males and females
- The scientific community thought before the hormones were responsible of these differences
- Our team has found that brain differences between males and females are not due to hormones, but to genes"

This is probablya very interesting step for the biologist community, but it remains a bit abstract for us normal people I'm thinking someone (the whole scientist team / one attention whore in the team / the scientific journalist) just talked about homosexuality to get publicity.

	21-10-2003 16:35									#53
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this, i think is all we need to say about sexuality: a song by group x, for the atlanta radio station 99x.

http://www.nanyzuda.hpg.ig.com.br/T...Bang%20Bang.txt

quote: I just want bang, bang, bang! I don’t want relationship I just want bang, bang, bang. I don’t want to know your name I just want bang, bang, bang. I don’t want to meet your mum, I just want bang, bang, bang. Fresh u drive me insane Will you give me dat? Bang, bang, bang! Ok Annie Listen, I don’t want to make sex, eat chocolate, look at animals, take walk, No. You come home and you say “Hashmier, touch me down there, I like that” I don’t think so Annie Don’t have time, want to drink, cigarette, U no, u no dose I mean Annie? I tell u what I just want bang, bang, bang! I don’t want to talk to you I just want bang, bang, bang I don’t want to no your name I just want bang, bang, bang I don’t want relationship I just want bang, bang, bang Fresh u drive me insane Will you give me dat? Bang, bang, bang! Oh Hashmier, Hashmier, you look so good in that hat, Why don’t you give me lots of kiss? Wrong... I don’t think so, Annie, You want me to do things to you like the sun and the moon Idiot I don’t have time-I have too many women All I got time for You know what is I just want bang, bang, bang! I don’t want to talk to you I just want bang, bang, bang I don’t want to no your name I just want bang, bang, bang Fresh, u drive me insane Will you give me that, bang, bang, bang? Fresh, fresh, fresh, fresh u give me that bang, bang, bang! Bang, bang, bang shrkida bang, bang, bang shwove bang, bang, bang I don’t want relationship, I just want bang, bang, bang!

	21-10-2003 18:15									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Combat Ingrid: I am a layman, but if I understand your abstract the study basically says: "- We knew already there were differences between the brains of males and females - The scientific community thought before the hormones were responsible of these differences - Our team has found that brain differences between males and females are not due to hormones, but to genes" This is probablya very interesting step for the biologist community, but it remains a bit abstract for us normal people I'm thinking someone (the whole scientist team / one attention whore in the team / the scientific journalist) just talked about homosexuality to get publicity.

Pretty much correct except that it should be "not only due to hormones..."

	21-10-2003 19:02									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich Ok, this question needs to be asked...so I'll ask it. If this study is true, then I have no choice to be who and what I am...so on this same line of thought, how can homosexuality be wrong (or a sin for that matter)?

Some people are sexually attracted to children. Does this mean that pedophilia cannot be wrong?

	21-10-2003 19:08									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 Some people are sexually attracted to children. Does this mean that pedophilia cannot be wrong?

Nice try, but you miss the point. There's no evidence that such attraction is genetic, or even biological. Rather, it appears to be psychological, and is therefore analogous to something like having a foot fetish or some other kink. Given that we're discussing the possibility of homosexuality being part of some people's hard wiring, there's no comparison to be made.

	21-10-2003 19:19									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Even if it could be shown that there were a gene for homosexuality, it does not mean that all who inherit the gene will act as homosexuals. In fact, it is a requirement that the gene does not predetermine behavior in order for the gene to propagate. Suppose the gene made 100% of all who had the gene exclusively homosexual? The gene would simply die out and fail to propagate. Therefore, there must need to be some wiggle room, either not everyone with the gene was homosexual, in the case of a recessive gene, or the gene merely influences behavior, and the urges can be controlled. Therefore, even if the gene exists, it must also allow for people to control their behavior. Did you win, Rufus?

Unless of course, the allele of the gene acts overall to be beneficial to the species. Such as a gene that hypothetically say, makes men who have it gay but makes women who carry it better mothers. Obviously the men won't pass the gene on but the women will benefit from the gene, have more children live to sexual maturity, and the gene will survive. So even some may not pass the gene on, enough will to ensure it's survival.

I don't deny that you can control urges. Hunger, after all, is just a combination of hormones and nerves feeding back upon each other yet people still starve to death. The question is, is it right to control those urges? Should a starving person deny themselves food because fringe members of society say it's immoral for them to eat?

I want to shout at the top of my voice that genes don't create behaviours, desires, or personalities. Genes create proteins. Yet most people would require a college level education in biology to understand what subtle and powerful meanings that sentence has.

	21-10-2003 21:22									#58
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So in this study, they were able to produce transvestite mice?

	21-10-2003 21:52									#59
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Yeah, the male mice looked so cute in their little ballerina dresses.

	21-10-2003 22:36									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Says the stupid creationist. Creationists shouldn't even be allowed to talk about science.

**** I come back here and find myself in agreement with Odin.

The Diplomat: Prove it. For once in your life, prove it. Prove that homosexuality is immoral behavior. And I don't want to hear stinking bible quotes. I think I got enough of that when I watched that **** Pat Robertson was saying on the TV. What an idiot. Pro gay agenda? Since when did we have an agenda? We just want equal recognization.