21-10-2003 19:02									#31
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I voted banana because although I don't think it's necessarily an exploit, it would be very bad for our reputation.

	21-10-2003 20:58									#32
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I don't see it as an exploit, because we need their will to do it. I can think of many cases in which one of the two teams wouldn't want to do this:

- Team A is in Monarchy and Team B is in Republic
- Team A has more luxes than B
- Team A has a superior military and don't want to give B the chance to recover
- Team B is in Golden Age and Team A wants to spoil it.
- etc

As BigFree says, if they offered an accepted tech, would we get it or not? They are the ones offering peace.

Last edited by OliverFA on 21-10-2003 at 21:06

	21-10-2003 21:39									#33
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We shouldn't do it unless they know of this possibility beforehand. If they do not know it can be used to combat ww, then they are making a mistake without knowing it is a mistake.

Once this possibility is known, THEN it is acceptable. But IMHO it is not acceptable before then.

To see if this is right or wrong to do, we must ask "Would GCA, have made this offer if they knew it could combat ww". If the answer is no, then we should not do it, period.

This is different than moving a worker next to us by accident, since in that example they know we can take him. They do not realize that their peace offering can cause reduced ww.

Also another observation, BF are you sure that the effect last more than say 1 turn. Perhaps after you declared war all the ww comes back the next turn.
As mentioned earlier I always thought that ww was cumulative and reduced over time. However, I am fairly new to multiplayer and relaize the ww is probably done differently here.
Aggie

	21-10-2003 22:36									#34
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Sorry Aggie, I disagree with you about the "do they know the effects" arguement. We are in this game to prove our knowledge is better than theirs. If they don't know how this helps us, why should we tell them?

This is not an exploit. This is a tactical mistake they made. They made an earlier tactical mistake by not pilliaging a road. Should we go back and tear it up saying "I know you meant to do this, but didn't, so we'll do it for you." To not take advantage of a mistake would be a mistake itself.

We have seen unexpected peace offers happen before (between CGN and GWT and in the PTWDG). Never was it sent as accepted. They screwed up and did send it accepted.

Vote Yes.

	21-10-2003 22:44									#35
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Switch 1 vote from "No" to "Yes."

As Donegeal said, this game is about the knowledge that the teams possess of the game and how it can be wielded to win. They will know better next time.

	21-10-2003 23:07									#36
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Oh please.

There's knowing how to play the game, and then there's knowing all about the nebulous little things that are still not implemented well in multiplayer Civ3. I'm sure we've all learned our fair share of "dirty tricks" by playing demogames that we could use to exploit our future unsuspecting opponents.

Ever change the name of one your cities to "Chivalry" and offer it to another player? The WW exploit we're using is perfectly analogous to this stupid trick.

At the end of the day, I would much prefer be a better Civ3 player than have a long list of exploitable game bugs, ready to be unleashed on ignorant opponents. Even if you do not consider this a "bug", the fact GCA does not know about it and we do does not fill me with any sort of pride.

The honorable thing to do would be to tell them about it. Then we can go about destroying them with a clear conscience.


Dominae

	21-10-2003 23:07									#37
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quote: As BigFree says, if they offered an accepted tech, would we get it or not? They are the ones offering peace

But we are not accepting peace!

This is how we are proving that our game knowledge is better than theirs?! Bah

	21-10-2003 23:10									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Oh please. At the end of the day, I would much prefer be a better Civ3 player than have a long list of exploitable game bugs, ready to be unleashed on ignorant opponents.

	21-10-2003 23:11									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Ever change the name of one your cities to "Chivalry" and offer it to another player? The WW exploit we're using is perfectly analogous to this stupid trick.

There's no way to tell the difference even if you do know about the trick.

That is not the case with the effects of peace and war weariness.

	21-10-2003 23:45									#40
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I'm not convinced the galley bug is a bug. I look at it as the ship is assigned to patrol the area. This would give an LOS advantage over ships moving through. I have never seen Firaxis treat the fortified ship LOS as a bug. The only bug might be the fortify all bit with cargo after all movement is exhausted, but then again, two ships could do the same thing.

I am convinced it is.

First of all it is not documented. Something like showing an entire extra tile of view with no apparent reasons better damn right have some sort of conceptual reason for being so. Yes, we can "imagine" it being because the ship is supposedly patrolling an area but this just our imagination. By using imagined explinations for bugs or exploits to justify them then we can also say that we are really truly honestly accepting peace and then change our minds at the last minute and re-declare. It's all in the eyes of the beholder.

	21-10-2003 23:51									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Oh please. Ever change the name of one your cities to "Chivalry" and offer it to another player? The WW exploit we're using is perfectly analogous to this stupid trick.

Speaking of stupid tricks:

Ever change the name of a settler to "worker" in a big stack so the enemy doesn't know it's an offensive settler? Cheesy tactics like that were used by none other than the Gathering Storm. If the most "honorable" team in the PTWDG did it, then why can't we?

	21-10-2003 23:53									#42
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I haven't voted yet; I'm still listening to all the arguments. However, those who are against it: do you not consider capitalizing on your opponents mistakes valid strategy?

	22-10-2003 00:07									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Ever change the name of a settler to "worker" in a big stack so the enemy doesn't know it's an offensive settler? Cheesy tactics like that were used by none other than the Gathering Storm. If the most "honorable" team in the PTWDG did it, then why can't we?

Like Luke Skywalker, you're in danger of becoming what you hate the most.

(By the way, I was not even aware that we did that.)


Dominae

	22-10-2003 00:20									#44
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX I haven't voted yet; I'm still listening to all the arguments. However, those who are against it: do you not consider capitalizing on your opponents mistakes valid strategy?

Personally I think this is entirely beside the point. The real question is: do we want to win by playing this way?

In the absence of a standard set of rules dictating what is "okay" and "not okay" in this game, I feel it would show good sportsmanship to play as uncontroversially as possible.

You can bet I would be angry at any of you if you tried to pull something like this on me in a PBEM game. Maybe not angry, but I would surely not play with you ever again, because I would know you're more interested in winning than having clean fun.


Dominae

	22-10-2003 00:29									#45
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But our point, Doninae, is that a player as good as you would not make this type of mistake. They have faltered. (IMHO) We MUST pounce on every mistake.

	22-10-2003 00:32									#46
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Ditto Dominae, thanks for standing up for whats right!

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Oh please. There's knowing how to play the game, and then there's knowing all about the nebulous little things that are still not implemented well in multiplayer Civ3. I'm sure we've all learned our fair share of "dirty tricks" by playing demogames that we could use to exploit our future unsuspecting opponents. Ever change the name of one your cities to "Chivalry" and offer it to another player? The WW exploit we're using is perfectly analogous to this stupid trick. At the end of the day, I would much prefer be a better Civ3 player than have a long list of exploitable game bugs, ready to be unleashed on ignorant opponents. Even if you do not consider this a "bug", the fact GCA does not know about it and we do does not fill me with any sort of pride. The honorable thing to do would be to tell them about it. Then we can go about destroying them with a clear conscience. Dominae

	22-10-2003 00:43									#47
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I agree with nye on this

	22-10-2003 00:50									#48
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Just a silly question: would the trick help at all? I thought WW was sort of "accumulated" and if you made peace and declared war shortly afterwards, the accumulated WW would kick back in only very slightly lower, as it diminishes only over time (during the after-war peace, where the EFFECT of the accumulated WW is not seen, but the WW itself is still "there").

Anyone able to answer my silly question?

	22-10-2003 00:55									#49
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A verly close poll. With Trip changing from No to Yes, it changes the totals from 14-14-3 to 15-13-3.

We'll see how this pans out.

I can understand those that think it is not 100% honorable to do this, because it is not. This is taking advantage of a mistake of another player(s). If someone at a store gives me the wrong change back, in my favor, I give them the money back on the spot. Does taking advantage of a mistake in any circumstance make you less than honorable? No, there are many reasons why this is not always true. When you play chess and a player makes a move, removes his hand, then realizes the mistake a bit afterward is a mistake the player has made. Should his opponent allow him to make another move....

	22-10-2003 01:01									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Like Luke Skywalker, you're in danger of becoming what you hate the most. (By the way, I was not even aware that we did that.) Dominae

I never complained when it happened. Neither did anyone in GoW. It was cheesy but valid in our opinion, in fact pretty smart. For the same reason I think this exploit is in the same league.

	22-10-2003 01:30									#51
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Would someone please answer vondrack's question. I honestly don't know the answer to that one...

I also think Dominae has provided an excellent argument here. Do we really want to win this way when we are perfectly capable of winning fairly? It's one thing to use dirty tricks to defeat an opponent, it's another entirely to ground their face into the mud fair and square.

I want to win this game and I want to win it without any doubt at all from the rest of the civ community about the good sportsmanship and calibre of the players who won it. This has the potential to damage that, a potential to spoil our good victory.

Apolyton is a better team because we micromanage well. We're a better team because we pay close attention to the information the game gives us about other teams. We're a better team because we make better decisions in times of war and peace. We're a better team because we don't go rushing off into wars we're not sure of winning.

I don't want to be a better team because we abuse stupid tricks that only arise because of the poor implementation of multiplayer in Civ3...

	22-10-2003 01:39									#52
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Ditto, thanks Arnelos!

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Would someone please answer vondrack's question. I honestly don't know the answer to that one... I also think Dominae has provided an excellent argument here. Do we really want to win this way when we are perfectly capable of winning fairly? It's one thing to use dirty tricks to defeat an opponent, it's another entirely to ground their face into the mud fair and square. I want to win this game and I want to win it without any doubt at all from the rest of the civ community about the good sportsmanship and calibre of the players who won it. This has the potential to damage that, a potential to spoil our good victory. Apolyton is a better team because we micromanage well. We're a better team because we pay close attention to the information the game gives us about other teams. We're a better team because we make better decisions in times of war and peace. We're a better team because we don't go rushing off into wars we're not sure of winning. I don't want to be a better team because we abuse stupid tricks that only arise because of the poor implementation of multiplayer in Civ3...

	22-10-2003 01:40									#53
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I *think* that WW would just kick right back in the next turn. But I don't *know* it.

quote: (By the way, I was not even aware that we did that.)

We did, in fact. In retrospect it was a little cheesy, but a fairly mild cheese. First off, there wasn't much point to it - GoW/ND hit the stack anyway, and managed to destroy it, capturing the combat settler along with a bunch of our catapults. Would knowing one of the "worker" units was actually a settler have changed their actions? Doubt it. So I'm not even sure why we did it. Wasn't my idea, anyway.

I still say laugh at them (GCA).

-Arrian

	22-10-2003 02:01									#54
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Honor became a non-issue the turn we crossed the border.

The team decided unilaterally that winning was more important than remaining honorable.

	22-10-2003 02:10									#55
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My opinion has already been stated on what I feel about this and whether it is fair ball to use it or not. However, to me there is a larger issue at hand, and that is team unity and respect for strongly held opinions of what might be a narrow minority on a matter of principle.

I would like to make it clear that as a Consul, I would not be comfortable proceeding with an action on behalf of Apolyton when so many are morally opposed.

	22-10-2003 02:11									#56
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quote: Honor became a non-issue the turn we crossed the border. The team decided unilaterally that winning was more important than remaining honorable.

Then we should reload, too.

	22-10-2003 02:17									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Honor became a non-issue the turn we crossed the border. The team decided unilaterally that winning was more important than remaining honorable.

I would not say that. I would say that necessity and realism over-rode honour on that occassion. It was done after much consideration, debate, and with full realisation of the potential consequences. We also have not tried to be weasels on the issue. That does not mean that honour has been thrown into the dust bin, which your post could imply.

	22-10-2003 02:29									#58
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On a sidenote, to help the Consuls: I'd bow to the majority's decision, even it is was against my vote/opinion. I admit that this is (obviously) a controversial issue, and I won't protest if we use the trick, should the "yes" option win.

I simply prefer winning fairly, not by using (abusing?) stupid tricks (well said Arnelos )

	22-10-2003 02:29									#59
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quote: would like to make it clear that as a Consul, I would not be comfortable proceeding with an action on behalf of Apolyton when so many are morally opposed.

Nail hit on head.

-Arrian

	22-10-2003 02:36									#60
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I would like to make it clear that as a Consul, I would not be comfortable proceeding with an action on behalf of Apolyton when so many are morally opposed.

An even larger percentage of the people were opposed to holding up the save during the cheating crisis. That did not stop the consuls from holding it despite the opposition of a majority. To me it seems it is only uncomfortable when it goes against what some of you think is right and not what the majority thinks.