21-10-2003 06:13									#1
	Eliminating War Weariness (Exploit?) Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

During the last turn GCA sent us peace accepted. BigFree discovered that if you accept and then re-declare war during the turn war weariness is eliminated and "starts from scratch" since the old war is considered ended and a new war begun. Technically this could be classified as an exploit to greatly reduce war weariness, however one can argue that it is only possible because GCA themselves are making it possible by sending peace accepted.

So, the question is do we do it or not? I think it wouldn't be a bad idea. If you argue that yes it is an exploit, just remember that practically everyone (myself excluded) has agreed and supported the fortify galley trick which is a blatant exploit of a game bug. This is far less an exploit since it does not take advantage of any bug.

If you want another reason on why to do it, I can always say the FAM authorizes a brief moment of peace before resuming the war, that would make it politically legit.

Please vote and discuss.

	21-10-2003 06:25									#2
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First, I don't think it's entirely fair to lump the galley trick in with this, but both are indeed exploits.

I happen to think this is a far more serious exploit because it allows a team to get away with having War Weariness. Given the impact that War Weariness can have on the game (compared to a single galley using the fortify-all trick), I'm very much of the opinion that this should not be allowed.

I think we should raise the issue at the U.N., quite frankly.

That said, I'll respect the wishes of a majority of the team.

	21-10-2003 07:14									#3
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Hmm. A crappy bug, yes. However, it wouldn't be possible if GCA weren't offering us peace to begin with. It's their fault for not making any demands for peace

I say USE IT! (Perhaps it may be slightly unethical, but what do I know? I download music too.)

	21-10-2003 07:16									#4
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This is a definite exploit that we should not use.

Seeing an extra couple of tiles is one thing. Completely removing the only disadvantage of Republic is another.

If this were a PBEM game I was playing solo, I would tell my opponent what was happening, with the expectation that he or she would probably stop sending an "accepted" Peace Treaty. Why should this be any different?


Dominae

	21-10-2003 07:31									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I think we should raise the issue at the U.N., quite frankly.

I'm with Arnelos on this point. I voted no. But then we should raise it as a point of discussion for all teams and get agreement on it.

(All pbem games are soon going to need a check-list of exploits/bugs/out-of-game-actions that you can do, and those you can't.)

	21-10-2003 07:54									#6
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Don't do it.

1. A few days ago, we delayed the sending of the saved file, got UN to investigate GCA and concluded (almost) that GCA is not playing with the RPG. And now, you want to try this exploit ? This exploit is bloody obvious, GCA can tell immediately what we are trying to do, and they can easily start a thread in the UN forum to discuss about our ethics.

2. The galley trick, on the other hand, is not clearly defined as an exploit. Let me try and argue it this way ... if a land unit can fortify and see x # of squares from Land, then the same unit on the galley should be able to see the same x # of squares, if not more. Reason being, i. there is no obstacle blocking the view across the sea and ii. you can climb to the highest point of the galley to see farther (?).

	21-10-2003 08:04									#7
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I'm not convinced the galley bug is a bug. I look at it as the ship is assigned to patrol the area. This would give an LOS advantage over ships moving through. I have never seen Firaxis treat the fortified ship LOS as a bug. The only bug might be the fortify all bit with cargo after all movement is exhausted, but then again, two ships could do the same thing.

The peace and then war again is not a bug either. It is how the game treats WW. If your oppo is stupid enough to offer peace accepted when you are a Republic or Democracy, then you are not exploiting the game, you are exploiting an opponents mistake.

If this were SP, there would be extremely severe consequences of such a war-peace-war shuffle. This is not SP, and we are playing humans who might occassionally make a mistake. They have made one.

	21-10-2003 08:52									#8
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Well, how many turns now has GCA sent us a peace offer?

	21-10-2003 08:53									#9
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I'm unsure of whether we should exploit it this time. I agree with nye it is valid because they must enable us to do this by risking an accepted peace treaty, but on the other hand, did GCA realize we could use it this way?

But regardless of what we decide, we should make a post to the UN noting this anti-WW measure so no one sends accepted peaces lightly.

	21-10-2003 09:29									#10
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I say no, mainly because of what the other teams may Percieve of this.

But lets discuss at the UN, upon global approval, I would not have a problem with it.

	21-10-2003 10:27									#11
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It is not an exploit or a bug. Period.

What it is, however, is a GCA screw up! BIG TIME.

They have offered us peace, "accepted", under no suggestion by us. In fact, we told them the opposite. We said we would contact them if and when we felt peace should be negotiated.

I vote YES!


conmcb25: The other teams will never know it happened. We accept peace, then immediately declare war just seconds afterward. I do this to the AI all the time. I take all they have to oofer me, reduce my War Weariness, then sack their A$$ again!

	21-10-2003 10:32									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep But regardless of what we decide, we should make a post to the UN noting this anti-WW measure so no one sends accepted peaces lightly.

No, I disagree with letting the other teams know of this. This is not an exploit or a bug, it is simply game mechanics at work as they werre intended. GCA just didn't see the ramifications of offering it "accepted" to us. That is their fault. Not a fault of the game. Not a fault of our's. The fault is with GCA.

Whenever we find a true exploit, then I would support bringing to the UN; but when we find that we can capitalize on a blunder by another team, then we keep that to ourselves and move on. Blunders will happen from time to time, whether its concerning moving units around to cover another, or changing builds and WF's....there's lots of mistakes that can be made. We don't go back a fix the obvious ones. You play on.

	21-10-2003 10:32									#13
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It's not an exploit. It is just dishonest.

	21-10-2003 10:39									#14
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Explain yourself?

How is accepting what they offered, with no comunications, being dishonest?

It's possible they are offering it to change the RNG somehow, yes. But what's more likely is that they are offering it because they are getting their butts handed to them. This is a game, it operates on rules and computer code.

If GCA mistakenly left a worker out in the open, should we let it go because it is a civilian?

If GCA left Algalord ungarrisoned, should we bypass it becuase their are no military units there?

If GCA offered us a tech, "accepted", should we not take it? (not that they have any to offer...)

These are all things that can happen in a game, but should we refrain from acting on them in our best interests?

	21-10-2003 10:44									#15
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Note from Lucky:

quote: Hey guys, I accidently moved a worker out into the open and next to your units where you can capture him on your next turn. Since it was an accident, and since we don't reload our turns in order to not make that mistake, I asking that you don't capture him even though we are at war. Thanks Lucky President of GCA

What would be our response?

	21-10-2003 11:00									#16
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quote: How is accepting what they offered, with no comunications, being dishonest?

We are not going to accept their offer. They offered peace, therefor this is what they want: PEACE. We don't want peace and redeclaring war means that we are not accepting their offer. So, the honest thing would be to not accept their peace proposal until we seriously consider to stop the war.

Sure, broking a NAP wasn't very honest, either. So should we want to win this game at all price, than go for it, use the trick.

I voted No, btw.

	21-10-2003 11:14									#17
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quote: Hey guys, I accidently moved a worker out into the open and next to your units where you can capture him on your next turn. Since it was an accident, and since we don't reload our turns in order to not make that mistake, I asking that you don't capture him even though we are at war. Thanks Lucky President of GCA

That's really stupid. Are they trying to prove us that they are not reloading, or what??!!

There are two possibilities:

1. You move a unit in a place where you wanted to move it and then realize that the place isn't good at all and you can lose the unit. So? This is part of the game and you accept the consequencies. You are not asking the barbarians: "Please, don't kill my scout !"

2. You move a unit by mistake (pressing 8 instead of 7, for ex) in which case I find a reload as perfectly acceptable.

Stupid GCA.

	21-10-2003 11:35									#18
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Tiberius sums it up well.

Take the worker. :P

	21-10-2003 11:54									#19
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Idiots. Reloading is unacceptable if you use it to get something out of the RNG or to "look ahead". If you goof on a move then I see no problem with it as long as all the orders are respected. The fact they put this so explicity as "we goofed and since we don't reload" makes me think it's an attempt at reverse psychology to prove they don't reload.

	21-10-2003 11:58									#20
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Some questions I have:

a) Was that a real note from Lucky, or just some text to set an example?

b) Would GCA see that we're accepting and redeclaring war if we use the trick?

c) Would the other teams see it?

d) Why is GCA sending the offers anyway? Is it because they're checking the diplo screen every time?

Just tell GCA to stop sending peace offers, otherwise we'll use the trick and our Republic disadvantages go away

	21-10-2003 12:03									#21
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Hmm...

The note above is not from Lucky, it was a "what if?"

That's why I said what "would" be our response, instead of what "will" be our response.

I though it was clear to everyone that GCA did not have a worker in the open on this turn for us, and that we have just played the turn and sent it to CFC. GCA has not even gotten the save yet. Sorry for the confusion.

	21-10-2003 12:07									#22
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We broke the peace once, what is wrong with breaking it again. Lets say we accepted peace, then did not attack. Then on the following turn GCA rode out with it's Horse's and attacked us, negating the peace. Is that cheating by them? No. It is a legal manuever for the game.

	21-10-2003 12:23									#23
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I do not support using the anti-WW trick. Not fair in my eyes. As Tibi put it - not an exploit, but dishonourable. Either we want the peace or we do not. Making peace and declaring war immediately afterwards is just adding one more unnecessary "backstab" onto our record. We do not need that (even if it's something others cannot find out).

But I'm not going to fiercely argue, I can understand that different people have different opinions on the matter. Just my opinion/PoV.

	21-10-2003 12:24									#24
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For future reference, hypothetical statements by others probably shouldn't use the "quote" tag

	21-10-2003 12:28									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos For future reference, hypothetical statements by others probably shouldn't use the "quote" tag

Yeah....thanks for pointing that out...

	21-10-2003 12:31									#26
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My primary reason for being against the WW-trick is what Tiberius laid out... in essense, we're not accepting what is being offered, peace. We're using a quirk in the game mechanics to use a peace offer to get rid of our war weariness without actually accepting the offer for peace.

Under the rules that those in favor of doing this propose, it would be impossible the two sides to offer peace offers to each other without at least one of two warring parties be the one to make the "MISTAKE" of accepting the peace offer. If peace is discussed between two teams and one offers peace, the other accepts, is it acceptable for the team that receives the accepted offer to accept and immediately declare war in order to cancel WW while continuing the war?

I think this violates the entire spirit of what a peace offer is for, since we're not accepting it. The fact that it also removes the ONLY disadvantage to Republic, as Dominae pointed out, means that it is (in effect) a rather gross exploit of the specific mechanics of PBEM (ESPECIALLY since they won't even be aware of the event taking place).

It's not just underhanded, it circumvents a major game balance issue and abuses a game mechanic.

	21-10-2003 12:35									#27
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It abuses GCA's mistake IMO.

What if we wanted to tranfer some Cats to CFC, they would have to declare war on us and then capture them. That would counter the effects or War Weariness that we are now experiencing. Is that "honest"? It has the same effect as accepting the peace offer from GCA.

	21-10-2003 14:50									#28
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It abuses not only GCA's mistake offer, but the game mechanics also. Hmm, I changed my mind: it is not only dishounorable, it is an exploit, too.

Last edited by Tiberius on 21-10-2003 at 16:21

	21-10-2003 16:23									#29
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Just a silly question: would the trick help at all? I thought WW was sort of "accumulated" and if you made peace and declared war shortly afterwards, the accumulated WW would kick back in only very slightly lower, as it diminishes only over time (during the after-war peace, where the EFFECT of the accumulated WW is not seen, but the WW itself is still "there").

	21-10-2003 18:37									#30
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Laugh at them.

Long and loud.

Just because.

-Arrian