22-10-2003 02:56									#61
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I was under the impression that people were in favour of holding the save while we dealt with Mongoose. That is why I went along with holding it even though, personally, I thought we should have sent it earlier.

	22-10-2003 04:41									#62
	Inflate your Upload Space

Effectively, I think what this discussion comes down to is:

"What kind of fighter is Apolyton?"

Fried has a checkered history, and one category he unfortunately knows a bit about is street/bar/club fisticuffs. There are two kinds of fighters within these environments:

You have the guy who will kick, punch, headbutt, swing weapons at you if they're readily available but not seek them out, and generally go for broke.

You have the guy who will claw at your groin, jam his thumb at your eyes, attempt to use his teeth as ripping weapons if you get close enough, immediately seek out some weapon to give him an edge, break the bottle BEFORE swinging, aim specifically for your knees and throat, and generally go for massive, crippling, unrepairable damage.

The first guy, even drunk or stone, still fights very hard, and still has a sense of personal honor and decorum. I would bounce these guys but not with undue force and *sometimes* wouldn't bother to call the cops.

The second guy is nothing less than an animal, and deserves to be treated as one. The bouncers made a point of making sure these guys didn't walk away, and we always called the cops on them.

So the question as I see it is this:

Of *course* we want to win. Everyone does. Of *course* we're going to play hard.... but are we the first guy, or the second one?

I vote "no." I am not an animal, and do not need to resort to those means to win this or any game.

	22-10-2003 04:57									#63
	Full PM-box? Change here!

"I am not an ANIMAL!"

	22-10-2003 05:21									#64
	Suffering from ads?

I want to be the second guy

	22-10-2003 05:50									#65
	Tired of ads?

I voted no.

I don't think we need this trick to win, at least against GCA.

I mean, come on, they are weak to CFC now.

	22-10-2003 06:03									#66
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

So, if the war as in balance or we were suffering a bit, then it would be ok?

	22-10-2003 06:12									#67
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by BigFree So, if the war as in balance or we were suffering a bit, then it would be ok?

Yes. Why win dirty when you can win fair and square? but if push comes to shove, then I don't mind a few gimmicks.

	22-10-2003 06:19									#68
	Got spare money?

Good arguments. And the more I think of it, the more this reminds me of the galley fortify all trick, which I detest. So I voted no.

	22-10-2003 07:07									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I was under the impression that people were in favour of holding the save while we dealt with Mongoose. That is why I went along with holding it even though, personally, I thought we should have sent it earlier.

There were two threads about sending the save, in both, over half the people were in favor of sending the save considering how long it might have taken Mongoose to reply. You were one of the ones in favor of sending it btw.

	22-10-2003 07:16									#70
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I this thread is a bit more than just asking whether we should do this now or not, but rather if overall we would consider doing this under other circumstances. True, we do not need to do this exploit now since we can already win with or without it. Therefore I would agree that at this moment, we should be best by NOT doing it. However, this raises the issue which asleepathewheel has mentioned, if we were under diffferent circumstances, would we in fact feel compelled to do it? And in this case I would say yes.

I think this is what this poll is really about, to see if we WOULD be willing should things chance. This also begs the question: do we need to use the galley trick to win? No. Whatever excuse has been given NOT to use the WW exploit can also be used perfectly to not do the galley trick. I am really surprised why some people have taken such a negative attitude to this trick while turning a blind eye to the other.

	22-10-2003 07:46									#71
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I am really surprised why some people have taken such a negative attitude to this trick while turning a blind eye to the other.

1. One trick offers a major advantage, the other a minor one at best.

2. One trick does not at all depend on another team's ignorance (and therefore exploitation of it), the other one does.

These two facts make the "Fortify All" trick and the "War Weariness" trick rather different.

If you were to push me on the issue, however, I would not be opposed to stop using the Fortify All trick as well.


Dominae

	22-10-2003 08:18									#72
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I voted no on the War Weariness part, but the Galley thing is o.k. by me.

I wouldn't normally do it myself, because I more than likely forget that I have it forted and it sit there for several turns before I remember It's out there.

E_T

	22-10-2003 08:27									#73
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Hmmm.... I did not realize that you and I had such different opinions, Dominae.

I turly feel the "Fortify all" is an exploit and I feel we should not be using it, but this issue is taking an advantage of someones mistake.

Taking this into account, I don't like the idea of lumping the two issues together, as this poll does.

quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon ...immediately seek out some weapon to give him an edge...

We are NOT seeking out a weapon. It is being handed to us.

	22-10-2003 08:34									#74
	Get a bigger avatar today!

That is very much a matter of opinion. I would say it is lying there to be picked up, surely, but GCA isn't asking us to abuse WW in that manner. If they knew about the potential abuse, I sincerely doubt they would be offering it.

C'mon guys. Winning is important, but at such point that it becomes the only thing... hell, why don't we just start reloading until we get three great leaders and win all our fights too? That's a debateable exploit just like this and the galley trick. All these lovely shades of gray... That's wrong, but this isn't? This is wrong, but the galley trick isn't?

The sliding slope has begun. Where will it end?

My "no" vote stands more than ever.

	22-10-2003 08:43									#75
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

If you want a debate and poll about fortifying ships, open one. I do not view this poll as having anything to do with it, except as rhetoric in the poll options; which BTW, the legal beagels have thankfully not used to invalidate this poll. Given demo game history, let's not go there.

	22-10-2003 12:34									#76
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Apolyton is a better team because we micromanage well. We're a better team because we pay close attention to the information the game gives us about other teams. We're a better team because we make better decisions in times of war and peace. We're a better team because we don't go rushing off into wars we're not sure of winning.

Apolyton is also a better team because we have a well-balanced group of players.

	22-10-2003 15:07									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen This also begs the question: do we need to use the galley trick to win? No. Whatever excuse has been given NOT to use the WW exploit can also be used perfectly to not do the galley trick. I am really surprised why some people have taken such a negative attitude to this trick while turning a blind eye to the other.

Dominae answers this questions well for me, MZ. Can we take the Galley discussion and do it elsewhere? I am really on the edge of being irritated with issues being sidetracked by the same thing again and again. It is clear this thread is just about the WW issue, so let us KEEP it that way.

As to vonD's question, I cannot think of a relatively easy way to test this - can anyone tell us from their personal experience with MP? From SP experience it is true that the WW will just jump back right away unless we waited for a sufficiently long time before declaring war again. I can't rule out a single turn of no WW, however, so even if the aforementioned were the case it would be a worthwhile tactic.

This decision has been in my mind for a few days now, and I have spent a long time mulling over it. Eventually I decided what I would stick to. This is a matter of MP ethics rather than in-game details, and I am with those who stand up for Poly's reputation. That is what we are doing this for - our reputation. What reputation is there in knowing we cheated to win? That is what I, and clearly many others would believe about this war if somehow the trick worked better than in SP (in which case it is clearly a bug that it does!) and we eliminated our WW in this way.

Besides, I am convinced we will crush GCA whatever happens: good luck or bad, they are running out of units; mongoose has reportedly stated that the war is not a good thing for GCA (he leaks more than adrunk with bladder issues), and our power apparently shows we have over twice GCA's unit power.

We don't need this - we are not only good enough to realise the trick, but more: we are good enough to spurn it. WW ends wars for me in SP, and it is meant to. If we are using this trick we are defying the very reason WW was placed in the game, and that is the worst exploit imaginable - one that evades a crucial game feature.

NO.

Edit: make that a manual NO vote. I refuse to vote in a poll that forces me to vote for an option that has no business being in this poll. Dammit MZ, at least you could have given the option of voting for no WW exploit, no Galley trick, using both or using none. This poll is technically invalid and very frustrating.

	22-10-2003 15:58									#78
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I voted No awhile back, regardless of the wording. Because the galley trick is pretty much meaningless now anyways since we have contact with everyone.

	22-10-2003 16:02									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It can still help us to spot islands.

	23-10-2003 00:20									#80
	Full PM-box? Change here!

IMHO what counts at the end of the day is not if you play fair or not, but if you are alive or not. Also, there is a difference between cheating and playing not fair. Cheating spoils the fun, because everyone has agreed to play under certain rules. But when someone does unfair but allowed things, he is just being smarter.

	23-10-2003 00:49									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by OliverFA IMHO what counts at the end of the day is not if you play fair or not, but if you are alive or not. Also, there is a difference between cheating and playing not fair. Cheating spoils the fun, because everyone has agreed to play under certain rules. But when someone does unfair but allowed things, he is just being smarter.

Hm?

The whole point here is that we do not know what is allowed and what is not allowed in this game.

And, just because I'm curious, what's the difference between playing unfair and cheating?


Dominae

	23-10-2003 04:25									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by OliverFA IMHO what counts at the end of the day is not if you play fair or not, but if you are alive or not. Also, there is a difference between cheating and playing not fair. Cheating spoils the fun, because everyone has agreed to play under certain rules. But when someone does unfair but allowed things, he is just being smarter.

I don't think if a player plays unfair that they are smarter. It is the wrong thing to do. What really is the difference between cheating and playing unfair? Not much.

	23-10-2003 04:41									#83
	Inflate your Upload Space

I take it the "Fortify all" exploit is having a unit with MP fortify with other units without MPs resulting in even the units with no MPs becoming fortifited?

Yup, that would be an exploit, perhaps fixed in the upcoming Conquests?

I am kind of surprized we have WW at all given this is a MP game; guess Firaxis added it to multiplayer in one of the PTW patches.

	23-10-2003 05:01									#84
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Yeah, jonc - there was no WW for MP in v1.21f, but it was fixed by being added in the latest patch.

	23-10-2003 16:30									#85
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I take it the "Fortify all" exploit is having a unit with MP fortify with other units without MPs resulting in even the units with no MPs becoming fortifited?

In the case you cite here, only the units with MP left receive the fortify bonus; the others wait until the next turn begins before they get that bonus. This has been conclusively proven in the ladder community. The change to units which have already run out of movement is graphical only, but the instant the new simulturn starts, they do get the bonus (movement is refreshed.)

The trick they're referring to is naval - if you "fortify all" a boat, any boat that begins a turn fortified can see one extra square over a boat that merely ended its turn by doing nothing.

	25-10-2003 22:52									#86
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Doing my weekend catch-up...

I vote no to anything that is remotely an exploit or taking advantage of some generally unknown 'bug' (and no, I do not feel simple teleporting or renaming units to fall into either category, but let's not go there).

And, I'd like to point out, if memory serves correctly, that F-P teaches children... WHOA!!

	26-10-2003 02:09									#87
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well, hopefully the boats seeing an extra square if they start in fortified state is fixed in conquests.

	26-10-2003 04:25									#88
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

If it is fixed, then we will know it was either a bug or a feature that didn't work well enough. However, if it is still there, that would validate my personal belief (and that of some others) that it is a feature that ships can see this extra distance when fortified.

It just makes perfect sense to me!

	26-10-2003 06:27									#89
	Get a bigger avatar today!

It's certainly a feature. The question is whether using it on move 0 ships through fortify all is an exploit.