22-10-2003 09:05									#31
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I only want to skip a year of history and a year of english, though... so next year I can take AP Chem and DNA Science I & II, in addition to the Differential Equations + AP Physics + Adv Optics I & II + Quantum Mechanics + AI + Supercomputer Applications (we actually have a Cray!)

Last edited by Kuciwalker on 22-10-2003 at 09:19

	22-10-2003 09:11									#32
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PS: a lot of those are semester courses, so together the ones I'm taking only take up four course slots (not taking English and History would free up two, for the chem and bio courses I mentioned).

	22-10-2003 10:12									#33
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I went to a top-notch college that abolished all requirements back in the 60s. At the time, I was in heaven. Now, like AS, I see the glaring gaps in my education, though I can't say that those gaps have had any real-world consequences (but then, I'm an academic, so what do I know about the real world? ).

On the other hand, those glaring gaps make lifelong learning fun. I'm continually using my time for pleasure reading to "give myself a course" in something or other (right now, its basic philosophy with an emphasis on epistemology). After all, a real education doesn't just teach you specific things, but teaches you how to learn.

	22-10-2003 10:34									#34
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I have a few subjects that don't have that much to do with what I'm doing, such as philosophy, ethics etc and they can be a serious pain in the ass tbh

anyway i can't choose any of my subjects so what the ****

	22-10-2003 11:10									#35
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see

I have found that low level courses are usually uninteresting and I would be better off teaching the subject to myself

Jon Miller

	22-10-2003 12:01									#36
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quote: Originally posted by TCO most "college students" need trade school more than liberal arts education.

In the U.S. at least I agree completely. We should cut funding for higher education to the extent that we can use it to turn out high school graduates that can actually function at the level we expect of college freshman. Four year universities should not be a middle class entitlement, but should be reserved for the intellectually elite. Community colleges should be expanded to be very broad based, encompassing trade school elements, life long education and as jumping off places for people who don't immediately qualify for University but who would like to work their way into one.

	22-10-2003 12:24									#37
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THe problem with majority of the students is that they are lazy with the courses. Many look for what is easy credits instead of what is good for them. If course is known difficult to pass, it is avoided.. some try to dodge challenges andactually having to study hard. And that's why they'll be mediocre. This have very little to do with the topic though.
Some don't appreciate the chance they've been given. Some don't realize how much their education costs, even when they saw the price tag.
Some people study to get the degree, some people study to learn.

Unfortunately minority is really capitalizing on the moment, realizing the opportunities, learning and learning, wanting to steal all the information.

But sure, there could be some mandatory courses too.

	22-10-2003 12:28									#38
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Calculus up to integration and Physics up to dynamics should be mandatory. No one should be considered an adult until they pass those.

I think axiomatic structures and probability are also crucial to understand a lot of things.

On the humanities side logic and critical thinking are fundamental.

	22-10-2003 12:33									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly After all, a real education doesn't just teach you specific things, but teaches you how to learn.

That's why I got thousands of books everywhere, from the sciences to engineering to philosophy to how to write scripts.

I will soon sleep on books

	22-10-2003 16:23									#40
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quote: So says the U of C alumn

of course, these days, the old alums are complaining that the core is too easy. besides, most of us are getting rid of it and want to "get it out of the way" in the first two years.

even so, i still like the core.

	22-10-2003 16:34									#41
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For me (and I'm talking from experiences from a un-american college and university system) the portrayed need 'required cources' seems to be just an euphemism to the fact that the students haven't learned what they should beforehand. In other words, the secondary school-system has failed.

	22-10-2003 17:07									#42
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We have PLENTY of required courses, here. More than half of my degree are required courses. Why? Because here we don't enroll as much to the university as to the faculty. We're predestined to graduate in something, and changing the graduating degree is very very difficult. To this point, I haven't taken a single humanities course, because my degree doesn't require it. ( though our university, which is actually a technological institute, gives us the possibility to take a relatively small number of humanities classes). The most humanist degrees we get in our university is Economics, Medicine, and Architecture.

They do teach us HOW to learn, though. In each and every course, tutors and lecturers help us in that, as well as having a recommended special course on that in the 1st simester.

So far I had ( Including the simester that has just started ):
4 Math courses:
Calc 1
Calc 2
Linear Algebra.
Diff. Eq. ( both Regular and Partial)

1 Biology Course.:
Biology 1

2 Physics Courses:
Physics 1
Physics 2

1 Enviromental Engineering Course.:
Air Pollution

9 Chemistry Courses:
-Chemistry 1
-Chemistry 1 Lab
-the Basics of Molecular Symmetry ( Group theory, and it's application in chemistry )
-Organic Chemistry 1
-Organic Chemistry 1 Lab
-Organic Chemistry 2
-Analytical Chemistry 1
-Chemical Termodynamics
-Non-metallic Chemistry

out of all of these, Only 2 courses were NOT required courses.

	22-10-2003 17:11									#43
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hmm

I guess it depends on what you think that college should try to do

the liberal arts approach is that college should give a well rounded education

so therefore everyone needs to do a lab, do some logic/math, do some languages, do some social sciences, ect

you are expected to do that on a lower level, but also to have a college level education in all those areas

so your degree is a Bachelor of Arts

mine did not have either my math major or my honors physics major on it

those were just focuses, not the degree

Jon Miller

	22-10-2003 17:23									#44
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My girlfriend works at Leeds University, and most of the students there need extra classes in how to write essays - and this is only the arts students.
In Britain there is a gulf between what students are taught at A level and what they have to do in the first year of university, and often it's sink or swim as far as the universities are concerned.

	22-10-2003 17:38									#45
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I think you need to distinguish between life skills and trade/technical/vocational skills.

Some people bash the liberal arts but what I was basically taught was how to think for myself and how to learn. That education has served me well. That was a "life skill" education and made me a better person.

Since that time I have picked up all sorts of "technical" skills like languages and technical professional skills and knowledge. That was my "technical" or "vocational" education, mostly learned on the job.

I think the thing that arts graduates notice about other graduates is they sometimes lack in development as a person i.e. engineers with no people management skills, a bit of a problem on a construction site; or doctors unable to care for their patients in anything but a cold clinical way. That's a b*tch if you've ever had a doctor like that.

	22-10-2003 17:41									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Some people bash the liberal arts

Of cource they do, it's liberal.

	22-10-2003 17:47									#47
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lets see

I had 9 courses required for a physics major
5ish more for honors physics

12 or so for math

than I had 16 or so required for my degree (the bachelors)

I also took a couple physics and a philosophy courses that didn't cover any requirements (plus took a couple easy semesters and a january off)

Jon Miller

	22-10-2003 18:07									#49
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lets see

I was on a semester system

I had

6 semester hours of a writing course
6 hours of us history
8 hours of french
4 hours of sub sahara africa
4 hours of a first term seminar 'physics and science fiction' (dealt with SR, mechanics, and SciFi)
4 hours of Chemistry + Lab (more class time than a regular 4 hour class because of the lab)
4 hours of Bible
4 hours of Macro-Economics
4 hours of US Politics
4 hours of appreciating literature
4 hours of ballet

and tennis, rachetball, and personal fitness to complete

I think that is all (there were also a couple of requirements I finished with my math and physics classes)

Jon Miller

	22-10-2003 18:09									#50
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4 hours of bible?

	22-10-2003 18:13									#51
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I went to a Lutheran School

we were required to take one Western Religion's Course

I took one that was imaginatively known as 'The Bible'

Jon Miller

	22-10-2003 18:35									#52
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Well since everyone is showing their plans and courses, here are mine for this fall and spring (we divide full year to two semesters).

I translated some of these myself, so excuse me for that:

Programming I
Data Systems basics
Computer basics
A look into information technology
Mathematics I
Business Project
English Business Conversation
Mathematics II
A deeper look into information technology
Programming II
Data Systems II
Digital Design I

Should total about 40 credits of the 160 I need to get my MD. Note that we have different credit system etc, so these numbers etc are not equivalent to other systems.
But DON'T worry. I know this looks kind of boringish.. but basic studies (first year) are usually same within the faculties comp students.. so after this I get released from my cage, the rest of the losers will be learn about teaching and knitting purses and feeding little kittens while I'll be doing heavy programming the rest of my studies.. So second year I have absolutely NO courses that is not needed. I need all I take. I'm not about to take a course about saving the environment or how to make my own red wine. No sir. I use the opportunity of slacking off to get more courses that supports directly what I'm studying. It's not for sissies!

	22-10-2003 18:54									#53
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I call them trade schools cause the only thing you learn in Law school is how to be a lawyer, and in Med school, how to be a doctor of some sort..that is waht trade schools are, fully focused on getting you the skills needed in one particular field.

I have to disagree somewhat here-- law school can often be a very academic place which bears little resemblance to the daily activity of being a lawyer. In fact many law students are disappointed with the law school's focus on the minute details of complicated and often obscure legal arguments instead of practical " trade school" type courses that would help with the day to day practic of law.

	22-10-2003 20:35									#54
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I say no.

Anyone who wants can take classes in whatever subjects they want. I'm in the first semester of my sophomore year and have already taken math, foreign language, two sciences, philosophy, political science, religion, and english, and I hope to take some more stuff. This is because I am the sort of person who likes to do that. I am glad I am allowed to do this rather than being forced, like some of my friends in Europe, to concentrate entirely on a single subject, which there they say is "for your own good".

Likewise, there might be someone who is very interested in only a single subject (or in ten subjects, none of which are the ones you want to require), and while they may respect mathematics or history or whatever, they may be more interested in concentrating on something more appealing to them, and I would be a hypocrite if I wanted to tell them to study philosophy "for their own good".

Another point is that there are some very good reasons not to want to take a certain subject beyond being an incomplete human being who only cares about one subject. I haven't taken any history yet because I think our history department here is awful and because all the 100 level classes are things which mostly I already know and one isn't allowed to start with a 200 level. A lot of people are already happy with how they are in a specific subject and don't want to waste time going over that subject again. Another good example is that I had to take a class last semester to fill a PE requirement. The only class that fit into my schedule was golf, and it was at the time of day when I usually go to the gym and lift weights and use the treadmill. If they had let me out of that requirement, I would've gotten a lot more exercise than I ended up with.

Further, there's the question of what exactly should be required. A lot of people seem happy with the idea of there being some requirement - in whatever they happen to think is the important area. I have a philosophy professor who thinks everyone should be required to take philosophy but doesn't think math or english is important enough to merit that kind of distinction. A lot of Catholic schools make you take Theology, even if you're a non-Catholic who's just going there because the public schools in your area are awful, just because the people who control the school are priests who think theology is what's important. I'm sure there are professors in every subject who feel the same way about their own subject. As it is, the only requirement my college has is a class on "cultural diversity", which I think most of us can agree is a pretty dumb idea, at least when you realize it's preventing us from learning calculus or linguistics or particle physics or whatever.

A requirement is basically a college's way of saying "You don't know what you want - we know what you want". It's a slap in the face of students who they're trying to pretend in most other ways are responsible adults. If you want to be a well-rounded full human being, fine. If you just want to know everything about a specific subject, then at least you know what you want. Any college that tries to limit you to one or the other isn't just educating you, it's trying to propagandize you.

I bet there are a lot of people who wish they had taken different classes in college, like Adam. But I think it was Gandhi who once said that the essential element of freedom is the freedom to make mistakes, and that's a whole lot better than having some college bureaucracy enforce mistakes on you.

	22-10-2003 21:23									#55
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This semester..

Taxation
Industrial Organisation and Policy
Political Theory
Oligopoly and Game Theory

First year was the time for diversification, where I did introductions to Maths, Accounting, Marketing etc - all within the SMBA though.

	22-10-2003 22:22									#56
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Pekka: an MD? wtf?

	22-10-2003 22:27									#57
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Azazel, yep. ?

	22-10-2003 22:28									#58
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What is this degree. Are you becoming a doctor? And if so, why do you need programming?

	22-10-2003 22:30									#59
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No doctor. Masters Degree, yes? We consider Bachelors Degree a shameful failure .

Just kidding with the failure thing. Besides after that I'd be like almost maybe 3 years away from that doctor .

	22-10-2003 22:40									#60
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Every arts student should be forced to take (and pass) calculus in their first year at uni (which has 50% failure rate for science students). After all, I was forced to pass english placement exams, english courses, and the english requirement (exam).

Most artsy-types took psychology as their 'science' requirement (yeah right psychology=science) while the science-types took the same course as one of their arts requirements.