25-10-2003 20:35									#31
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Oh come on . That's a false dichotomy if I've ever heard one. And it also fails to take into account a myriad of factors that are at the root of the problem- cultural background, parental involvement and overall family life, etc.

Just because educational programs target a certain race doesn't necessarily mean it's a racist policy any more than public health or welfare initiatives are. Certain groups might just happen to share cultural traits, or have similar backgrounds, that hinder educational achievement.

	25-10-2003 20:43									#32
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Not all Ethnic Minorities (Personally, I hate that term) are under acheivers. Here in the UK, many Indian groups are excelling, and exceeding others.

My daughter is Half English, and Half Indian, so I wonder .. will she be classed as Ethnic Minority ?? Now you see why I hate the term , it has little meaning.

In this day and age, we shouldn't be refering to people as minorities, it just undervalues them in one foul swoop.

As for this plan, Im most against it. A plan to concentrate on ALL failing students would be nice .. a plan to help those who struggle with English would be nice .. a plan to help those that appear to be getting into crime /becoming distruptive .. that would be nice.

And the best thing about it is, those plans would actually do more good for the very people who this plan was intended to reach.

	25-10-2003 20:47									#33
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obviously, they can't teach the black students in the class a certain way and then leave the two poor white kids sitting in the corner un-involved... in a way, that is what this thing seems like it is, though i'll admit i havent read the article (page doesn't seem to load)... seems like it though what with the "improving achievements among black students" what do that entail? damn BBC for not working for me.

	25-10-2003 21:58									#34
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Skywalker speaks the truth.

Besides, Jac de Molay, "socioeconomic status" is just a word encompassing the many socio-economic factors that can explain failure at school: income sure, but also parental divorce, parental skills in English, criminal behaviour, criminality of the neighborhood, family size, integration of the family in society etc.

I fully understand that black people suffer much more often from problems in these regards, and as victims of these problems they should mechanically profit more often from school help. But the deciding factor to decide who gets school help should not be the skin colour. Otherwise, it would mean that you officially expect black people to suck at school by their very nature.

	25-10-2003 22:48									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor But the deciding factor to decide who gets school help should not be the skin colour.

Perhaps, but in this case, black Carribean children turn out to be the ones the need help.

I don't see what the issue is.

	26-10-2003 01:41									#36
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The issue is that they are helping them, not because they need help, but because they are black Carribean children.

There are some, I'm sure, who are just as well off as white children. They shouldn't be getting help. However, there are white children who are just as poorly off as most black children. They should be helped.

quote: Skywalker speaks the truth.

The Force is with me

	26-10-2003 03:23									#37
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Spink, you're right. What's gotten into you?

	26-10-2003 09:50									#38
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker The issue is that they are helping them, not because they need help, but because they are black Carribean children.

There clearly is no such indication from the original BBC article.

	26-10-2003 13:50									#39
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The problem for PA, is that with education, it is always harder to keep darkies in their proper place.

	26-10-2003 13:57									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Perhaps, but in this case, black Carribean children turn out to be the ones the need help. I don't see what the issue is.

Unless you claim that the fact that they're black Carribean has something to do with their underachieving, I don't see why you have to place this as a criteria to help. Just help those who need help. I am sure that not all of the black Carribean kids need help, and I am sure that not all of those who need help are black Carribean. Catch my drift?

	26-10-2003 16:29									#41
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"I am sure that not all of the black Carribean kids need help"

It seems MrFun and Urban Ranger are, and seem implicitly to state that they are inherently inferior.

Target those who are struggling in education. Why target by skin colour? Results from exams will surely do the trick (as God knows in UK kids sit enough tests).

	26-10-2003 19:00									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger There clearly is no such indication from the original BBC article.

Yes it is. They are deciding whether or not to help each child by looking at their race.

	26-10-2003 22:11									#43
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The inherent racism in politically correct wannabes

I just don't see how anyone could be in favour of targeting blacks in order to improve the education of those who are struggling, instead of targeting those who are actually struggling.

Quite sad.Indeed one could make a case that it is these sort of policies that help racist groups. If everyone that are struggling were helped equally, black or not, there would be no issue. But as it is, people who have been here for generations are being overlooked in favour of a politically correct "let's help the minorities" stance, despite this implicitly inferring that black children need more help because they are black.

Shame on Urban Ranger and MrFun. Racists.

	26-10-2003 22:41									#44
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Race profiling is only justified in one circumstance: when racism is considered a true hindrance to whatever aim the minorities get help to achieve. this is why the American affirmative action was (and maybe still is) justified for access at the University, because racism towards Blacks was a real hindrance, and Skin colour is a real indicator of the racism you suffer.

But I doubt that British public schools are racist. There may be traces of racism here and there, but I don't think racism is nearly relevant enough to explain even a tiny part of school failure among minorities.
Ergo, racial profiling is bas in these circumstances.

	26-10-2003 22:41									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue The inherent racism in politically correct wannabes

Look who is talking!

	26-10-2003 22:58									#46
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quote: this is why the American affirmative action was (and maybe still is) justified for access at the University, because racism towards Blacks was a real hindrance, and Skin colour is a real indicator of the racism you suffer.

WTF?

	26-10-2003 23:30									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel WTF?

In the past, in American universities, Blacks suffered from racism (mostly by their schoolmates), and said racism was a significant hindrance for Blacks to enter university, no matter their wealth or education.

In this case, it was necessary to help Blacks, because only Blacks (and maybe other minorities) suffered from this kind of racism. In such a situation, skin colour was a justified deciding factor for affirmative action.

	26-10-2003 23:35									#48
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?! What is needed to do is to stop the racial criteria, not to put new ones instead.

Why the hell should a black kid from a middle-class family be preferred over a white kid from a middle-class family?

	26-10-2003 23:48									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Why the hell should a black kid from a middle-class family be preferred over a white kid from a middle-class family?

To counterbalance the fact that society prefers a white kid from a middle-class family. When the society stops preferring white kids, the affirmative action has indeed no reason to exist anymore.

	26-10-2003 23:55									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: this is why the American affirmative action was (and maybe still is) justified for access at the University, because racism towards Blacks was a real hindrance, and Skin colour is a real indicator of the racism you suffer. WTF?

Try being black and looking for a summer job. Many people would reject you from the beggining. So, since drawbacks come based on skin colour in western societies, it is only natural that benefits will be given based on colour as well.

At least that's one rational.

	27-10-2003 00:28									#51
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Hello? Excuse me? Is this going to be taking across all British schools?

Nope. 30 schools. Now it strikes me that if this is part of The Great Evil Lefty PC Conspiracy That Is Evil And Must Be Stopped Why Didn't We Believe You Enoch, they'd probably have tried it in a few more schools, don't you?

Which strikes me that this has "pilot" written all over it. Presumably to test whether teaching methods across the board need to be reviewed. If, on a nationwide level, we are failing to educate black kids successfully then a government-funded scheme to try out new methods strikes me as being a good idea. Or do we just leave them to rot?

Is it just Apolyton? Does it cause people to switch off their brains when reading articles and not think about them?

	27-10-2003 01:03									#52
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its a very large uphill battle to hurl money at schools in poor neighborhoods. its like trying to get an alcoholic to quit by building him a padded white room and paying security guards to watch him.

most of the ppl who believe in education, are hard working and dedicated leave these neighborhoods. so what u have is a social vacuum. afterall, there is always a place where ppl who are smart and capable will leave.

the best thing u can do is *try* to find the ppl who are smart and willing and stable enuff to become productive members of society and try to get them out. but there is no way at present to stop the vacuum.

realize though that it is the culture of these neighborhoods that creates these situations.

	27-10-2003 01:11									#53
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quote: Try being black and looking for a summer job. Many people would reject you from the beggining. So, since drawbacks come based on skin colour in western societies, it is only natural that benefits will be given based on colour as well. At least that's one rational.

I am sorry. I didn't know you suffered from so much discrimination.




"society prefers" is a meaningless ****ing term, and AA is hardly providing any solution to this problem.

	27-10-2003 01:14									#54
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Laz, we're talking principally here. This article was just something to build a discussion upon.

	27-10-2003 01:16									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Try being black and looking for a summer job. Many people would reject you from the beggining. So, since drawbacks come based on skin colour in western societies, it is only natural that benefits will be given based on colour as well. At least that's one rational. I am sorry. I didn't know you suffered from so much discrimination. "society prefers" is a meaningless ****ing term, and AA is hardly providing any solution to this problem.

So would you like studies or articles?

Not meaningless at all, if that's what it prefers.

A reportage springs to mind about exactly such a thing.

	27-10-2003 01:25									#56
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"Society prefers white people over black people!"



There are instances of discrimination, without doubt. But you don't solve discrimination by putting more discrimination. You solve the issue by changing the nature of society, not placing some fake restraints that only incite discomfort.

	27-10-2003 01:27									#57
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I never said "society prefers white people over black people".
I said that it's proven to be more difficult to get for example a summer job if you're black.

If you want to translate this to: society prefers, feel free.

	27-10-2003 01:38									#58
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I don't see what's the problem with this. Apparently, this group of kids consistently perform very poorly and will thus simply be paid extra attention to give them a better chance in life. It's not like they will stop teaching the kids from more sophisticated ethnic groups.

	27-10-2003 01:56									#59
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quote: . It's not like they will stop teaching the kids from more sophisticated ethnic groups.

How are "ethnic groups" connected to the level of sophistication?

	27-10-2003 02:01									#60
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I think this is called "irony" Az. Notice the rolling eyes as well