 |
| |
|
|
yavoon
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Your optimism is touching. So, please explain me why it is so much harder to get a degree when you're born in the ghetto than when you're born in the upper class?
It is one factor without a doubt. The importance given to education varies among cultures and among sub-cultures (such variations have their causes too and can be adressed).
But to the belief it is the only reason, or even the main reason, is even more ignorant than the belief this culture gap doesn't exist. |
it is the main reason. capitalism creates gaps. when u figure out the system go and get an education and strive to conquer ur forlorn past. what is the first thing u do? MOVE. u get the frick out. u think puffy lives in the ghetto? he lives in the hamptons man. there is constant vacating of just about anyone/everyone who becomes successful.
I don't understand ur first paragraph at all(asin how it pertains to my views, or how it even contradicts my views), perhaps u misread something.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
yavoon
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
yavoon is saying that the more intelligent/successful people who are born in the ghetto end up moving out. The ones who stay are the less intelligent or successful people. People who aren't successful will usually pass on the traits that make them unsuccessful to their children, meaning that over time the unsuccessful traits get concentrated in that area. Anyone who by some chance happens to have traits that make them successful move out, so those traits don't stay in the ghetto. |
yah, sorta. tho less focus on "traits" like they're genetic markers and more focus on cultural moors like "get an education." "dont smoke crack." "work hard." its the culture of the ghetto thats f'd. and since everyone who figures that out leaves, its not bound to go springy anytime soon.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Spiffor
|
 |
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:31
|
|
Edit: Actually, Skywalker's posts are much more bollocks than Yavoon's. Yavoon is right when he's talking about the cultural gap.
Skywalker:
The willingness willing to go to school or not, the willingness to work hard or not, etc. is barely connected to individual traits. Being hardworking or hardlearning is not something you're born with, it is something you can learn to value or not.
The mainstream cultures of our western societies value hard work and value hard learning. But this is not a natural phenomenon. Actually, work was not considered as a value but as a curse until about the industrial revolution.
As a result, there are different work ethics around the world. The Americans favor hard work for oneself. The Germans favor high quality work. The Chinese historically favor hard work for the community. The French favor hard work aimed at good leisure. And countless cultures (mostly non-western) see work as a curse in which one should indulge as little as possible.
As we're talking about ghettoes since a few posts: these places suffer from being too much exposed to their own counter-culture, and too little to the mainstream culture. As a result, the values of hard work and hard learning are not valued as highly there. People who get concetrated in ghettoes aren't any less birght than middle or upper class people. They wouldn't be any less able of getting degrees if the were in the right environment.
But for a ghetto-person, it may be hard to abandon the values in which he has been raised to embrace mainstream values. He would be ridiculed by his friends, he may not be understood by his parents, and he'll enter an unknown world. This is not easy. To imagine the difficulty, imagine one second that you decide to become drug-dealer to get rich, and imagine the reaction of your acquaintances.
As per the argument that it is not the duty nor the job of the State to change society: wrong and wrong. The State pushes its values through public schooling, it rewards the behaviour that goes in the right direction according to him (rewarding pupils that do good in math rather than those who beat up all their classmates; it shows for example that the State values more brains than brawls).
I don't know if it's the job or the right of the State to do so, but it sure is doing so.
Lastly, your argument that a capitalist society will correct racist discriminations... Well, if said capitalist society is racist itself, it is economically rational for a company to hire only white people. It will make communication between colleagues easier, and it'll please the client.
There was a terrific example in Eastern France a few years back. A banker of Arab descent was looking for a job. He sent two exactly identical resumes to an Alsacian bank; the only difference being the name (very French on the one hand, and his real Arabic name OTOH). The bank accepted the first resume and replied to the second there was nothing corresponding to his profile  . And, guess what was the excuse the bank gave to the media after being caught red-handed? "The clients would feel uncomfortable with an Arabic banker". Bingo, it was more economically rational for them to be racist.
Yavoon:
We agree that the ghetto culture sucks. I'm actually very much in favor of a "Kulturkampf" to basically get rid of the ghetto culture.
What I meant in my first paragraph was that it was much harder for people living in poor households to have good results at school. How come people who are born in poor families have a much harder time getting a good education than people who are born in rich families? Is this because the poor are genetically that stupider? Is this solely or mainly because of the "poor culture" of being lazy? I don't think so.
There are many reasons for having a bad performance at school, and culture is but one of them.
- You are the eldest of 5 and you must watch them while your lone mother is at work? Try study in these conditions.
- Your family can't pay for you to get a sufficient diet? Your working consitions are suddenly higher.
- You must bring money to the household? That's as much time you won't spend on learning.
- Your parents divorced and you are now emotionally weak? You'll have worse results at school.
There are many more socio-economic reasons which can explain failure at school. Culture is one of them and must be adressed too. But it would be blind of you to think culture is the main factor, let alone the only factor, which explains the educational gap between income ranges.
Last edited by Spiffor on 27-10-2003 at 03:10
|
|
| |
|
|
|
yavoon
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
The 3 posts above (Yavoon and Skywalker) are complete bollocks.
[I'll edit this post to justify the above sentence, but I'm in a hurry in placing this post well] |
its like a teaser for a leftist rant.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Bereta_Eder
|
|
Interesting and articulated.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Kuciwalker
|
 |
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:31
|
|
quote:
Skywalker:
The willingness willing to go to school or not, the willingness to work hard or not, etc. is barely connected to individual traits. Being hardworking or hardlearning is not something you're born with, it is something you can learn to value or not.
The mainstream cultures of our western societies value hard work and value hard learning. But this is not a natural phenomenon. Actually, work was not considered as a value but as a curse until about the industrial revolution.
As a result, there are different work ethics around the world. The Americans favor hard work for oneself. The Germans favor high quality work. The Chinese historically favor hard work for the community. The French favor hard work aimed at good leisure. And countless cultures (mostly non-western) see work as a curse in which one should indulge as little as possible.
As we're talking about ghettoes since a few posts: these places suffer from being too much exposed to their own counter-culture, and too little to the mainstream culture. As a result, the values of hard work and hard learning are not valued as highly there. People who get concetrated in ghettoes aren't any less birght than middle or upper class people. They wouldn't be any less able of getting degrees if the were in the right environment.
But for a ghetto-person, it may be hard to abandon the values in which he has been raised to embrace mainstream values. He would be ridiculed by his friends, he may not be understood by his parents, and he'll enter an unknown world. This is not easy. To imagine the difficulty, imagine one second that you decide to become drug-dealer to get rich, and imagine the reaction of your acquaintances. |
I'm sorry, I put too much emphasis on traits. It is not only that, but that people in the ghetto who have the upbringing to be able to leave it will. Thus, those who are part of the culture that promotes success will leave, leaving only the culture that doesn't.
quote:
As per the argument that it is not the duty nor the job of the State to change society: wrong and wrong. The State pushes its values through public schooling, it rewards the behaviour that goes in the right direction according to him (rewarding pupils that do good in math rather than those who beat up all their classmates; it shows for example that the State values more brains than brawls).
I don't know if it's the job or the right of the State to do so, but it sure is doing so. |
I think our definitions of the values of society differ. Schools exist (in theory) to educate us; they aren't supposed to indoctrinate us (again, in theory).
quote:
Lastly, your argument that a capitalist society will correct racist discriminations... Well, if said capitalist society is racist itself, it is economically rational for a company to hire only white people. It will make communication between colleagues easier, and it'll please the client.
There was a terrific example in Eastern France a few years back. A banker of Arab descent was looking for a job. He sent two exactly identical resumes to an Alsacian bank; the only difference being the name (very French on the one hand, and his real Arabic name OTOH). The bank accepted the first resume and replied to the second there was nothing corresponding to his profile . And, guess what was the excuse the bank gave to the media after being caught red-handed? "The clients would feel uncomfortable with an Arabic banker". Bingo, it was more economically rational for them to be racist. |
In that case you are right. However, for "behind the scenes" jobs, it works. Ultimately, though, I think that this is a problem that will solve itself. It isn't something that can or should be solved through government intervention. Discrimination is wrong; two wrongs don't make a right. Also, discrimination by race (by the government) is expressly forbidden in the Constitution, and I think that even if you think that something that violates the constitution is a "good idea", you shouldn't do it.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Spiffor
|
|
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:31
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
I think our definitions of the values of society differ. Schools exist (in theory) to educate us; they aren't supposed to indoctrinate us (again, in theory). |
Schools indoctrinate us, media indictrinate us, family indictrinates us, peers indoctrinate us. We're being indoctrinated from womb to tomb. About any judgement of value one can tell is indoctrination, because it relays "l'ordre des choses" (I guess it could translate as "the way things naturally are")
But good and bad aren't "natural" actually. Murder for example is a very grave crime in time of peace. It becomes a virtue in times of war. Pedophilia is probably the most terrible thing one can indulge in today's societies; it was the normal way to go in ancient Athens. And even in your post to which I'm replying: you assumed that government intervention is bad without even justifying it. As an American, you're naturally suspicious of State intervention. As a French, I'm naturally eager to get it.
Every time the "way things naturally are" is repeated, it is indoctrination. But the families and the school are the most efficient in the game of indoctrination because they teach values to kids who are hardly able to resist, or to oppose preconceptions that already exist.
My point is that you can't teach kids without indoctrinating them. And I much prefer having a State do that and get a cohesive society, rather than having micro-communities do that and have an imploded society.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Bereta_Eder
|
|
About that kid being black and not being able to find a summer job, I've read it in a Greek newspaper.
There's a controversial issue which has risen. It's a bit long to explain, it has to do with school parades and the right of the best student to carry the Greek flag during our 2 national holidays (28 October: the refusal to join the Axis and beating Italy in WW2 and 25 March the start of the liberation struggle from the Ottoman Empire).
The law says: the best student will carry the flag, representing his school. And this is being done in all cases, wether the child is Greek or is a foreigner without Greek nationality be that Albanian, American, Brazilian, Bulgarian, Pakistani etc. But there is a region in Northern Greece where the parents association has rebeled and says that a child (he is from Albania) should not carry the flag because the flag is a national symbol to which only people of Hellenic nationality should carry/give honours and that there must be another way to reward the best of the best.
So the article of the newspaper did a survey on many schools with lots of immigrant children, most are 1st generation immigrants and don't have the Greek nationality yet. There was a group of kids, one from Zair, the other from the US, the other from Georgia, Armenia etc. And the black kid said that he's been trying to get a summer job and couldn't. He said there was no racism otherwise, in his school by the young generations etc. However his failure to find a job somehow sounded my alarm bells off. Greece has received huge waves of immigrants from the Balkans and many other parts of the world and I don't know how "ready" we are for them.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
yavoon
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Edit: Actually, Skywalker's posts are much more bollocks than Yavoon's. Yavoon is right when he's talking about the cultural gap.
Yavoon:
We agree that the ghetto culture sucks. I'm actually very much in favor of a "Kulturkampf" to basically get rid of the ghetto culture.
What I meant in my first paragraph was that it was much harder for people living in poor households to have good results at school. How come people who are born in poor families have a much harder time getting a good education than people who are born in rich families? Is this because the poor are genetically that stupider? Is this solely or mainly because of the "poor culture" of being lazy? I don't think so.
There are many reasons for having a bad performance at school, and culture is but one of them.
- You are the eldest of 5 and you must watch them while your lone mother is at work? Try study in these conditions.
- Your family can't pay for you to get a sufficient diet? Your working consitions are suddenly higher.
- You must bring money to the household? That's as much time you won't spend on learning.
- Your parents divorced and you are now emotionally weak? You'll have worse results at school.
There are many more socio-economic reasons which can explain failure at school. Culture is one of them and must be adressed too. But it would be blind of you to think culture is the main factor, let alone the only factor, which explains the educational gap between income ranges. |
*yawn* I never once said it wasn't harder to get an education in a poor neighborhood. INFACT. I named the reason that not only is it harder, but its not going to change anytime soon.
ur examples are anomolous and easily overcome in the grand scheme. libraries are free, so are highschool. community college is almost free. so tahts basically savin up for 2 years of real college. state school is cheap.
IF a neighborhood didn't deal crack, didnt shoot each other in the streets at night, cared about their childs education....blah blah blah. then the cost of educating a person would be ridiculously low. u speak of but a fraction of the problem, I speak of the overriding symptom.
who are the ppl who MOST promote education and hard work as a means to succeed. those who have succeeded through educaiton and hard work. how many of them live in the ghetto? thats what I thought.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
yavoon
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
My point is that you can't teach kids without indoctrinating them. And I much prefer having a State do that and get a cohesive society, rather than having micro-communities do that and have an imploded society. |
wow thats really how the french think? holy gigantic idealogical gap batman. if I ran the country I would take the direction of the european union, spin 180 degrees and hit the gas(read: devolve federal power).
and u guys want some sort of hegemon's wet dream.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Albert Speer
|
|
Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:31
|
|
quote:
I said that it's proven to be more difficult to get for example a summer job if you're black. |
no... anyone can get a minimum wage part-time job no matter what the hell you are... maybe for some higher jobs it's more difficult but not no mcdonalds job.
quote:
However his failure to find a job somehow sounded my alarm bells off. Greece has received huge waves of immigrants from the Balkans and many other parts of the world and I don't know how "ready" we are for them. |
huh? too much cheap labour= too few availible unskilled jobs= the one black teenager in all of greece has trouble finding an unskilled job=/(does not equal) greece is racist against blacks
quote:
who are the ppl who MOST promote education and hard work as a means to succeed. those who have succeeded through educaiton and hard work. how many of them live in the ghetto? thats what I thought. |
therein is the problem... got rich and fled to the burbs. damn, can't you stay a while and help out?
but there are things that do help... religious groups are very influential and there's things like the amer-i-can organization.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Albert Speer
|
|
Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:31
|
|
Spiffor:
quote:
these places suffer from being too much exposed to their own counter-culture, and too little to the mainstream culture. As a result, the values of hard work and hard learning are not valued as highly there. |
yeah we don't value hard work and learning... yeah tell that to my man Brian who works full time and goes to high school to support his family now that his mom is out of work... tell that to my boy Stef who has been hussling his whole life, going to high school, playing varsity bball, working full time, and selling t-shirts and oils on the side... tell that to Jameelah who is a nurse and puts in 60 hrs a week at a minimum wage job in addition to nursing... tell that to Corey who is attending Northeastern University as a business major, got both an academic and a sports scholarship, and is studying to be a Luthern minister on the side... tell that to Latasha, Darryl, Teena, Lateef, Jamar, Wayne, Latanya, Nae'emah... ****ing come to my block and tell us that...
shut the hell up about **** you dont know about and how dare you diss my people.
Last edited by Albert Speer on 27-10-2003 at 20:54
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Albert Speer
|
|
Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:31
|
|
Spiffor:
no one in America thinks getting an education is a bourgeious thing... some people do be like thats that cracker **** but they're never serious and really respect anyone who gets an education...
quote:
did many of your classmates view school as the obvious way to be successful later, or did a significant share of your classmates prefer more underground ways to achieve success? |
everyone knows school is the way to get somewhere. in fact, whats ironic is how i know two guys who sell drugs in order to pay for college. in my signature, i mention one... at night, he puts a ****ing dub in his bookbag, goes down to south philly to catch the bus to jersey, does his transaction, and comes back for the morning commute, goes to class in the morning, sleeps the afternoon, and sets out again dealing...
he only ****s with weed because he don't want to get caught with a kilo or something and get a long ass bid. still, if he gets caught, jail-time and a record will really **** up his life. thats the problem...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Spiffor
|
|
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:31
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Albert Speer
he only ****s with weed because he don't want to get caught with a kilo or something and get a long ass bid. still, if he gets caught, jail-time and a record will really **** up his life. thats the problem... |
I completely agree with you Speer. This sucks. I hope they'll be able to end their studies and find a good job without being caught 
It's also good that everyone in America knows education is the only way to go, and that education is universally respected. I wish it cas the same here 
Don't get me wrong, save for the serious members of the gangsta culture, many people do in fact believe in education, but at various degrees.
For example, I am the spawn of a teacher, and it is absolutely obvious in my mother's and my worldview that I need a university diploma. Had I failed university, that would have been an utter failure and shame for me and my mother. Now, if I was born in a worker's family, the simple fact of going to uni would likely be seen a success in itself; It would not have been the obvious.
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:31.
Apolyton Time is 00:31. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
27-10-2003 02:02
|