25-10-2003 08:51									#1
	Is America moving back towards the left? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

First, here is what this thread will NOT be: another finger-pointing, *****-waving, pissing match between 'Poly trolls from both ends of the political spectrum.

I want this to be a reasoned discussion about whether or not the pendulum is swinging back towards the left in America (or, if you prefer, towards the middle).


What prompted this thought was something I've noticed on my pager for the past few weeks. I get random stuff on my pager, news and the like, and every so often I get best seller lists. And whenever the nonfiction best-seller list shows up, I've noticed that political books from the left have outnumbered those from the right.

For example, today the score was Liberals 4 (Moore, Franken, Ivins, Krugman), Conservatives 2 (O'Reilly, Limbaugh), autobiographies 2, history 2. Now, prior to a few months ago, I'd take note on how the list was dominated by those on the right--Coulter, Savage, O'Reilly, Hannity.

Does this shift in what's selling in the bookstores reflect a deeper shift in the political consciousness of the country, particularly in light of Bush's sagging approval ratings?

	25-10-2003 08:59									#2
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these things are cyclical, imho, but honestly it feels as if the shift is more right than left.

	25-10-2003 09:00									#3
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It depends on who you ask, liberals will say yes, conservatives will say no. The correct answer? Yes.

	25-10-2003 09:01									#4
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I think only a great fool would deny that the country has moved towards the right overall in the past few years; what I'm getting at is if that shift has ended, or even reversed in the past couple months.

	25-10-2003 09:05									#5
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The controllers have discovered what beast they have created and now they are desperately trying to put it back into box it came from by flooding the market with leftist litterature.

	25-10-2003 11:08									#6
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quote: Does this shift in what's selling in the bookstores reflect a deeper shift in the political consciousness of the country, particularly in light of Bush's sagging approval ratings?

I think you'd identified the trend in the bookseller lists, but don't know that you have identified it .

The books that dominate on the political seller lists are those that are against the current government. Discontent leads to good book sales. People who are frustrated with current government would buy books that express that, while people who are satisfied don't feel that same need. It doesn't matter what party is in power, the opposition flourishes.

	25-10-2003 11:20									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer I think only a great fool would deny that the country has moved towards the right overall in the past few years; what I'm getting at is if that shift has ended, or even reversed in the past couple months.

Not at all. The presence of different political books on the best seller lists (how many books compared to how many voters of each ideological stripe? ) is really much more about timing and marketing within the publishing business.

For example, a provocatively titled book like Coulter's Treason will piss off more people on the left than it will inspire people on the right to plunk down money for it. That pissed off-ness converts to frustration about "why don't we ever get our message out" then a book by Franken or Ivins or somebody magically appears.

It's also a likely phenomena that the ideology out of power, or that perceives itself out of power wants to compensate for it's political frustration, and that provides a basis for ideologically friendly authors and media types to produce more work.

If you're a Bush lover, you read the news, brag, smoke big fat seegars because your boy is in power and he's kickin' ass. If you're a Bush hater, you read Ivins while fantasizing about "what if Hillary decides to run." Obviously a generalization to the point of parody - but think about it, how are you going to get your political ideology fixes - by non-fiction if your guys are "in" and by fiction and/or history if your guys are "out."

	25-10-2003 11:28									#8
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quote: If you're a Bush lover, you read the news, brag, smoke big fat seegars because your boy is in power and he's kickin' ass. ... Obviously a generalization to the point of parody

Obviously. I don't smoke.

	25-10-2003 11:32									#9
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Liar!

	25-10-2003 12:15									#10
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Those lists are mainly based on recent books. It just so happens liberals have more recent books than righties like Hannity and Coulter. Though O'Reilly has a new book out.

	25-10-2003 12:24									#11
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I wouldn't go by political books as an indication of which side is more popular, rather which side is angrier.

	25-10-2003 12:32									#12
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In any case america is still moving to the right. Read up on this new target demographic- Nascar dads. Terrible name I know.

the problem with the left is they stand for higher taxes.

And no one wants higher taxes.

So until the leftists start getting a clue what the average american wants, they will continue to be shut out of the executive branch.

As for myself, I am moving more towards the left. I tend to do that with republican presidents. When democrats are president I tend to lean to the right more. Basically I hate whoever is the president at the time . but I hate bush more than just being a conservative. He is an inept president. I gave him the benefit of the doubt before. I figure he could do things right this time, but he hasn't.

	25-10-2003 12:39									#13
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Left and right...

Isn't there a third way? Surely there must be some American political writers who are able to elevate above it all and pass judgment on all concerned, or maybe get deep down into the really dark and labyrinthine excesses of the political mind?

It seems to me that all they are doing is providing an alibi for themselves by proxy. The proxy being the political opponent, which then becomes a mirror-image upon which thoughts are cast and then reflected back so as to legitimize beliefs.

	25-10-2003 12:41									#14
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quote: It seems to me that all they are doing is providing an alibi for themselves by proxy. The proxy being the political opponent,

Welcome to politics

	25-10-2003 12:44									#15
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I'm still waiting for a good book by a moderate who lays utter waste to both the liberals and conservatives. (In a humorous way, of course.)

Gatekeeper

	25-10-2003 18:56									#16
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Given that political moods in America swing appx. every 20 years and that the current conservative tone of American politics began in 1981, good money is on the next 20 years seeing a general shift to the Left (as Americans define it, of course. You socialists and communists can just go on dreaming. ).

Also, don't forget: buy low, sell high.

	25-10-2003 19:28									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer I think only a great fool would deny that the country has moved towards the right overall in the past few years; what I'm getting at is if that shift has ended, or even reversed in the past couple months.

I would say that the country has moved right for the past few decades.

I don't know if there's so much a shift to the left as the liberals have finally come out of their torpor and realized that playing the nice guy isn't getting them anyway. They need to adapt the Repugs tactics to succeed, not their politics. There has been a hunger for a long time for someone to out-Rush Rush, and liberals have finally found their attack dogs: Dean, Franken, Moore, Ivans, etc.

	25-10-2003 19:30									#18
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider It depends on who you ask, liberals will say yes, conservatives will say no. The correct answer? Yes.

Which of course has nothing to do with the fact that you are a liberal

	26-10-2003 10:51									#19
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quote: Left and right... Isn't there a third way? Surely there must be some American political writers who are able to elevate above it all and pass judgment on all concerned, or maybe get deep down into the really dark and labyrinthine excesses of the political mind? It seems to me that all they are doing is providing an alibi for themselves by proxy. The proxy being the political opponent, which then becomes a mirror-image upon which thoughts are cast and then reflected back so as to legitimize beliefs.

well, i'm sure there are. it's just that they don't really get heard, because moderation doesn't sell.

in any case, all those superpartisan pundits are *******s and wrong.

	26-10-2003 11:26									#20
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I think things are still moving towards the right. I think maybe things like the recent ruling on abortion from the Supreme Court is a better indicator than the best seller list. My worst example is that my egg cartons still say "God Bless America" on them. My dairy products are both patriotic AND religious!

Eventually they will go too far and things will swing back, but I don't think it will be for a while. September 11th is going to make this right wing period last longer and be more intense than usual. As long as they have that for a pretext they will be able to get a lot of their agenda done.

	26-10-2003 20:45									#21
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The nation moves neither left nor right, the only hcange is the proxies that we Illuminati choose to run it.

	27-10-2003 04:26									#22
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How can one seriously discuss this issue without referencing what happened recently in Democratic "Kali"-fornia.

	27-10-2003 04:46									#23
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quote: Isn't there a third way?

Wim Kok, Bill Clinton, Tony Blair

	27-10-2003 04:51									#24
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quote: Originally posted by nato My worst example is that my egg cartons still say "God Bless America" on them. My dairy products are both patriotic AND religious!

Urm, I don't think that you should be eating the 'eggs' cows produce

	27-10-2003 06:24									#25
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The country is moving right because of the rise of Christain Fundimentalism in the bible belt and pecause people are too stupid to figure out that taxes have a purpose, the morons. The Right also tends to use populist tactics such as patriotism to woo the mindless idiotic masses called Suburbia. You can really see this happening in Minnesota, the mindless masses are taking over the suburbs of the Twin Cities. I expected My state Senator Roger Moe to kick Tim Palenty's ass in the election for governer last fall, I was horrified when Palenty won and started to cut education spending because he would veto any tax increase on the rich.

	27-10-2003 06:25									#26
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quote: The Right also tends to use populist tactics

Odin, the Communist, deplores populist tactics

	27-10-2003 07:36									#27
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The country is getting more left, you're just getting older

	27-10-2003 07:47									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper I'm still waiting for a good book by a moderate who lays utter waste to both the liberals and conservatives. (In a humorous way, of course.) Gatekeeper

Unfortunately there is nothing funny about moderation.

As for the question at hand, it's hard to measure the country as a whole. Recent polls seem to suggest that older people are moving more to the left, while young people are a lot more right wing than is generally assumed. My feeling is that the left is getting more fired up, but I don't know whether that is going to translate into an increase in their political power overall, or instead is going to alienate others and reduce it. They could well flash in the pan like the Republicans did after 1994. They lost ground despite continuing to ride a long standing demographic trend which was favorable to them.

	27-10-2003 07:49									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Odin The country is moving right because of the rise of Christain Fundimentalism in the bible belt and pecause people are too stupid to figure out that taxes have a purpose, the morons. The Right also tends to use populist tactics such as patriotism to woo the mindless idiotic masses called Suburbia. You can really see this happening in Minnesota, the mindless masses are taking over the suburbs of the Twin Cities. I expected My state Senator Roger Moe to kick Tim Palenty's ass in the election for governer last fall, I was horrified when Palenty won and started to cut education spending because he would veto any tax increase on the rich.

With you as their spokesman, how could the left go wrong? The American people cannot help be persuaded by your logic, the idiots.

	27-10-2003 08:08									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Ned How can one seriously discuss this issue without referencing what happened recently in Democratic "Kali"-fornia.

I chalk up California to this old, infalliable adage--

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. No one ever lost an election that way, either.