28-10-2003 08:14									#31
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Looks good ET.

	28-10-2003 08:48									#32
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Link to a thread I just started in Strategy where I asked about this FP bug: HERE

In that thread is a link to Qitai's discovery of how this bug works. It is a CFC. And Qitai's article links you to the everything you wanted to know about corruption thread at CFC by Axelman, I think.....

	28-10-2003 08:55									#33
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Here are the links :

Qitai's FP Bug Thread at CFC

Axelman's corruption thread at CFC

Sir Plebe's Palace Rank Exploit Game (An example)

Last edited by conmcb25 on 28-10-2003 at 09:00

	28-10-2003 14:48									#34
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Moving our Palace to the GCA lands might be intepreted as using this exploit.

So what ..?

	28-10-2003 16:52									#35
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Because GWT has been called up twice just now for just such a "harmless little exploit", and imagine the horror if we were accused of cheating. More so, this is not just an exploit, but a genuine BUG.

Knowledge of this bug needn't affect our placement strategy - we just need to ignore radical ideas like placing the Palace somewhere really distant for lower corruption ranks near the FP (which doesn't apply very much for us now anyway) and place cities according to a best-use of land two core model as is the usual.

	28-10-2003 21:51									#36
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Palace-jumping is not an bug. The designers know about it and decided not to change it in in Conquests.


Dominae

	28-10-2003 22:16									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Palace-jumping is not an bug. The designers know about it and decided not to change it in in Conquests. Dominae

But dont you think jumping it to some out of the way place so your FP will be more effective is?

I think thats what we are talking about. If we deliberately do that exploit it may lok bad.

But a jump to a well planed out RCP or OCP or whatever shouldn't be.

At least IMHO.

	28-10-2003 23:38									#38
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We're using the palace jump because it's more convenient than palace jumping to Karina and building the FP in Catchopolis. Not because we're aiming to use the exploit.

	29-10-2003 06:59									#39
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We will probably use the Palace jump thing, which is where you abandon your capital and have your Palace jump to another city. BUT, we will NOT use the FP bug, which involves how corruption is calculated for your FP-centric cities once you have both a Palace and an FP. This bug would give us dramatically less corruption if we located our Palace a long distance off from any other city.

	29-10-2003 07:18									#40
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt We will probably use the Palace jump thing, which is where you abandon your capital and have your Palace jump to another city. BUT, we will NOT use the FP bug, which involves how corruption is calculated for your FP-centric cities once you have both a Palace and an FP. This bug would give us dramatically less corruption if we located our Palace a long distance off from any other city.

What do you suggest then? We go out of our way and waste 30+ turns building the FP elsewhere to try and "semi" correct the bug on our own terms?

	29-10-2003 07:23									#41
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The discussion is not meshing.

I highly doubt that we plan on Palace jumping to some locale that is distant from all other cities. We are planning on putting the palace in the middle of new, productive lands. We will build that area out in whatever fashion is the most productive and when it is productive to do so. The FP bug will not be a factor.

	29-10-2003 07:26									#42
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The problem is that if we palace jump to GCA-land, then we'll be "exploiting the bug," which MWIA said we would not do. Unless he's talking about something else.

	29-10-2003 07:31									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Trip The problem is that if we palace jump to GCA-land, then we'll be "exploiting the bug," which MWIA said we would not do. Unless he's talking about something else.

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt This bug would give us dramatically less corruption if we located our Palace a long distance off from any other city.

I think MWIA is saying we shouldn't build the palace off on a remote island to squeeze the bug for all it's worth, but that it would be okay to jump the palace to the middle of a new core of cities and accept the incidental, unavoidable, but smaller benefits from the bug in that circumstance.

	29-10-2003 07:35									#44
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A proposal has come up about palace jumping to Karina and building/rushing the FP in Catchopolis, which is what I assumed MWIA was talking about. That is, moving our Palace in a way which affects the bug as little as possible (Apolyton to Karina) and using the FP elsewhere.

Maybe I misunderstood what he meant.

	29-10-2003 08:32									#45
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* MrWhereItsAt cries

The whole point of my post is that I saw there was some cross-talk and bugs/exploits etc being confused.

WE MAY USE: the feature that lets you disband your capital and have the Palace relocated - we would likely aim the reloaction to GCA lands in order to make them productive. This would be if we got no GL from the GCA war and we had built the FP in a suitable spot, say Karina.

WE WILL NOT USE: the BUG in corruption calculations that ranks your FP cities better than they would otherwise be if your Palace is further from neighbouring cities than your FP is from its neighbouring cities. THis bug is wholly related to deliberately placing the Palace in a distant spot so that all cities near the FP enjoy less corruption than they should. We won't do this. This is the subject of the above posted links and is not under discussion at all.

	29-10-2003 09:29									#46
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Because GWT has been called up twice just now for just such a "harmless little exploit", and imagine the horror if we were accused of cheating. More so, this is not just an exploit, but a genuine BUG. Knowledge of this bug needn't affect our placement strategy - we just need to ignore radical ideas like placing the Palace somewhere really distant for lower corruption ranks near the FP (which doesn't apply very much for us now anyway) and place cities according to a best-use of land two core model as is the usual.

It would be good to bring this up at the UN so that all teams don't use it. If we are the only team that thinks of this as an exploit, then it will be allowed and not be considered cheating by the other teams. If other teams take advantage of this FP exploit, then we will be at a severe disadvantage. This is an issue for the UN to decide, not just our team as what the others teams do will effect the outcome of the game.

	01-11-2003 22:28									#47
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My thinking is that building the FP close by and followed by palace hoping is for the birds; cost of moving the Palace is probably higher than building the FP already, and further more, building cities increases the cost of the palace in addition to the possible corruption /waste effects of bumping cities down the ladder.

1. If Catchopolis isn't destroyed during the war, the FP should defintely be built there. Backup, any other war city captured intact along the same river. Otherwise, I guess we should found a city at "4" with intention of being FP city.

Once the city is built, if we are activity reseraching, finish it, and then during FP construction have research basically off to support rushing of structures with cash:

In order we need:
1. DON'T build any cities closer to the Palace than the FP until the FP is complete.

2. FP site to be road connected.

3. Several workers to join the FP city to boost it's population.

4. Start the process of Mining all worked tiles of the FP. Roads can be done as well, athough probably useful until the FP completes.

5. Temple rushed there after one turn. (Most likely at all but 1 unit rushed)

6. Courthouse rushed there after one turn. (Most likely at all but 1 unit rushed)

7. If Market Place would result in a We Love the ___ Day, then rush that after one turn. (Should be slightly more shields built)

8. Then start consturucting the FP. A GA and or a switch to Democracy or additional workers would be added. I figure the city will probably no more than 67% waste with a Republic + Court House + We Love the ___ day. (No more than 50% waste with a Democracy + Court House + We Love the ___ day)

	02-11-2003 04:26									#48
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Could you please describe your plan a little more precisely, joncnunn?

How big do you plan to grow the city?

Are you sure the city will enter WLTKD at that size?

Exactly how much Shield Corruption will the city suffer?

How long will the FP take to build?

---

The last one is the most important, of course. The cost of taking so many turns to build the FP away from home is more significant than simply disbanding Apolyton.

You give no reason why disbanding the Palace is not a valid option. The fact that the Palace increases in cost as you build cities is irrelevant, as the Palace jump tactic "builds" the Palace for your for free.


Dominae

	02-11-2003 12:38									#49
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Currently, with the number of cities that we have at this point in time, It would cost 500 shields to build the Palace in Any city.

and as for Corruption/waste in Catchopolus, it will be at (in Republic, we aren't going to be in Democracy anytime really soon):
Without any improvements - ~95% (catastrophic)
With a Courthouse - ~65%
With a Court & WLKD - ~48% WLKD can be attained at size 5 with a temple, a Market, 4 Luxes and 10% Lux. At size 6, you would lose WLKD, because you would not have enough Lux % to have that 6th pop as a content pop, it would be Unhappy, so you would lose the WLKD.

quote: 1. If Catchopolis isn't destroyed during the war, the FP should defintely be built there. Backup, any other war city captured intact along the same river. Otherwise, I guess we should found a city at "4" with intention of being FP city.

The above figures are based on having the New Catch at 7 from where it currently is. For City placement purposes, it's really the best place.

Now, we would need to have to spend a LARGE sum of money to get things set up for the FP build there.
1 shield Rush cost for a Temple - 236 Gold.
1 shield Rush cost for a Courthouse - 316 Gold.
1 shield Rush cost for a Marketplace - 396 Gold.
Total of 948 Gold (subtract 4 gold for every additional sheild that is built before rushing) which will require about 25 turns at 40 GPT to accumulate that cash (at regular amounts, no GA).
Now, we would assume that the Market build would not be as much, because you will have less than Catastrophic corruption after the Courthouse is built, so assume around 10% build before rushing. It's still a significant amount of cash and a long time to build up that cash.

No, this senario isn't good and we will continue to plan on building the FP in Karina and moving the Palace to New Catch. And at teh same time, building more cities, even just to have that 1 extra trade from that city until the FP is built.

MoI E_T

	02-11-2003 15:22									#50
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quote: Originally posted by E_T With a Court & WLKD - ~48% WLKD can be attained at size 5 with a temple, a Market, 4 Luxes and 10% Lux. At size 6, you would lose WLKD, because you would not have enough Lux % to have that 6th pop as a content pop, it would be Unhappy, so you would lose the WLKD.

E_T, you sure pop 5 allows WLTKD? I was always under the impression that only cities with pop 6 min can enjoy it.

	03-11-2003 00:06									#51
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hmm, I think your right. It's been a while from when I have looked at some of my games and played them to the point were I have WLKD.

Then if that's the case, we won't be able to keep WLKD up there.

E_T

	03-11-2003 02:16									#52
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You get WLTK day by putting the sixth citizen to work as a tax collector thus capping growth.

	07-11-2003 02:05									#53
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Bumping this thread

E_T

	08-11-2003 21:04									#54
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Sorry for the delay, was busy looking at Conquests forum:

On the facts about how much waste will be while building the FP and how much the rushing costs are, I agree with E.T. (50 - 60 % waste is where I usually build the FP in my games.)

What I disagree with is his conclusion.

FP is only 200 shields while a Palace + a FP is a minimum of 700 shields. (Could increase if cities founded between now and completion of it.) This area has lots of grassland that can be mined (along with forests covering up grassland that can be mined)

With minimum research (and no war : assume it's over by the time we start), we can easily afford to have all rushing going on at the FP site and no rushing anywhere else.

Most of the pop growing would be by assigning workers. I'd use them to get max number of working citizens with a We Love the ___ Day with a Temple, MarketPlace and current number of luxaries, and considering buying trading luxaries to increase this number.

I also consider it a good bet that we'll have a Golden Age during part of this.

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Could you please describe your plan a little more precisely, joncnunn? How big do you plan to grow the city? Are you sure the city will enter WLTKD at that size? Exactly how much Shield Corruption will the city suffer? How long will the FP take to build? --- The last one is the most important, of course. The cost of taking so many turns to build the FP away from home is more significant than simply disbanding Apolyton. You give no reason why disbanding the Palace is not a valid option. The fact that the Palace increases in cost as you build cities is irrelevant, as the Palace jump tactic "builds" the Palace for your for free. Dominae

	09-11-2003 04:28									#55
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joncnunn, I'm not sure you understand exactly what we're planning to do.

We plan to build the FP close our current Palace, taking advantage of the low Corruption in our core. Then, we plan to jump the Palace to ex-GCA lands by disbanding Apolyton. Our new Palace woudl be built "for free" (no Shield cost).

This is both faster and a more efficient use of our resources than building the FP as you detail.


Dominae

	09-11-2003 21:46									#56
	Phase 2: End of the War to when the FP is built Support Apolyton

First off, the timing for the end of the war and the start of this phase is variable. Mostly, the thing that we signal the start of this phase is having GCA totally removed from the east of BoP.

On the picture, the cities that have the white 1's on them are ones that were built in the previous phase.

The Sites are numbered in the importance of need. This emphasizes claiming of the fertile GCA areas, setting up the new border with CFC (with the possible gifting of Equilibrium to CFC) and a bit more of the old CDG areas.

10 sites in all.



MoI E_T

	09-11-2003 23:22									#57
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The Timing of this phase depends on how soon we can get the palace moved after the FP is built. It also would require us to build courthouses in some of our current core cities, so that they don't suffer too much from the move.

On the picture, the cities that have the white 1's & 2's on them are ones that were built in the previous two phases.

The reason that the other 2 sites that can be built in the southeast is because they would be palace centric and would effect the Corruption of the FP Centric cities. This will be the only use of the Corruption Bug that is discussed previously.



MoI E_T

	10-11-2003 00:37									#58
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Again, the timing of this should be very shortly after the Palace is moved. Basically filling up the land and building in places that aren't so hot.

On the picture, the cities that have the white 1's, 2's & 3's on them are ones that were built in the previous three phases. The Rings are for the Palace and the Black line is the demarcation between Palace Centric and FP centric (i.e. if it's north of that line, it is FP centric).

This map shows the city outline for Apolyton not being there, as it would have been abandoned when the Palace was moved. This does allow some of the other cities to grow some. This map does still show Lux, because we might still be using it to pump out workers to add to the other cities to get them up much faster.



MoI E_T

	11-11-2003 20:26									#59
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here's our entire homeland

	12-11-2003 02:30									#60
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We're already making long-term claims on the tip of Qatar I see