30-10-2003 08:32									#241
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Whatever happened to your tolerance, MrFun? I hope it's not just a one-way street.

I haven't changed -- at least not significantly.

I have always tried to respect other people's dignity and freedom of expression -- I still do.


My intolerance is towards those who refuse to respect other people's beliefs, or freedom of personal expression.

	30-10-2003 08:37									#242
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quote: Originally posted by orange does everyone keep missing the concept of PUBLIC vs. private land?

Let me give a short laundry list of what I see as appropriate expression of religion in public places, and what are not appropriate to help you see the light:


appropriate:

1) wearing religiously-oriented accessories or clothing in public places -- even public schools

2) carrying a Bible, Torah or what have you around with you, in full view of other people -- even in public schools

3) attempting to organize a religious-affiliated organization/club at a public school


not appropriate:

1) faculty/staff displaying Ten Commandments, or any other religious symbol(s) in the halls or rooms of public schools

2) faculty/staff mandating religious prayer in public schools



Note -- the ones I see as being appropriate expressions, are examples of PERSONAL expressions of one's beliefs, that is not part of any government sanctioning of any one religion.

The ones I see as not being appropriate, are examples of staff working in a government-supported institution violating the anti-establishment clause.

	30-10-2003 08:38									#243
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why is it conservatives never get the difference between wanting to be protected from yourself and wanting to be protected from someone else. As I have made abundently clear, I am afraid of others, who take their eyes off the road and cause accidents. I have a right not to be squished by these people. They don't have a right to squish me. Anything which makes it easier for them to be distracted, and thus run into me, is therefore, bad.

Oh come on, Che. Your argument about the public land has some credibility, but this is just rubbish.

If roadside memorials are distracting, then so are billboards, and buildings, and other cars, and pretty girls, and the sun, and moon, and everything else. This argument is just ridiculous. Is a small wreath and cross more distracting than a giant beer can on a billboard that changes to a McDonalds add every few seconds?

I'm sure more accidents occur from men checking out a woman in the next car, or walking down the street than ever occur because of roadside memorials. In fact I'm sure its a big problem. Lets save lives by making all women wear head to toe clothing. Nothing more than their eyes should be exposed, that would solve all these distracted drivers.

We need to protect people from reckless, distracted drivers after all.

	30-10-2003 08:39									#244
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I agree totally MrFun.

	30-10-2003 20:32									#245
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Let me give a short laundry list...

quote: appropriate: 1) wearing religiously-oriented accessories or clothing in public places -- even public schools 2) carrying a Bible, Torah or what have you around with you, in full view of other people -- even in public schools

Your person is not public property

quote: 3) attempting to organize a religious-affiliated organization/club at a public school

So long as all independently organized groups are accepted, I agree.

quote: 1) faculty/staff displaying Ten Commandments, or any other religious symbol(s) in the halls or rooms of public schools

Note that this is physically ON the property

quote: 2) faculty/staff mandating religious prayer in public schools

Obviously...

quote: Note -- the ones I see as being appropriate expressions, are examples of PERSONAL expressions of one's beliefs, that is not part of any government sanctioning of any one religion.

Exactly, personal. That is why those things are on their person

If people can legally put memorials on the roadside, than anything else should be legal, including a burning cross or a statue of Buddha. You can have it all ways or no way, take your pick.

	30-10-2003 20:42									#246
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quote: Originally posted by orange Exactly, personal. That is why those things are on their person If people can legally put memorials on the roadside, than anything else should be legal, including a burning cross or a statue of Buddha. You can have it all ways or no way, take your pick.

I don't see any government sanctioning of an official religion when INDIVIDUALS set up PERSONAL memorials along road sides.

	30-10-2003 21:08									#247
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If people can put up roadside memorials, then I should be able to put up signs extolling the virtues of communism or promoting my web business or telling jokes or just some cool art. The fact that this is public property doesn't mean that I can't just do what I want with it, anymore than I could put things up in a park, a goernment building, a national forest, on top the Washington Monument, etc.

Just because someone died on that spot doesn't mean you get to break the rules. Just because you're a Christian doesn't mean you get to break the rules.

	30-10-2003 21:11									#248
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That's a less assanine arguement.

	30-10-2003 21:26									#249
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc That's a less assanine arguement.

Maybe he's not trolling (as much)?

btw, I must say I'm offended by St. Leo's handle. I wasn't before, but suddenly I am filled with bile just looking at it.

	31-10-2003 01:11									#250
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I suppose wierd people tend to group together.

What's that quote from The Battle of Algiers?

quote: "Why is it that the leftists are always for the other guy"

	31-10-2003 01:19									#251
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc That's a less assanine arguement.

Is that your way of admitting defeat?

	31-10-2003 01:22									#252
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quote: Originally posted by orange Is that your way of admitting defeat?

It's my way of saying that he is no longer making a really stupid arguement (ie still talking about highway safety).

	31-10-2003 01:34									#253
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I honestly don't think he was serious about roadside monuments being distractions...I also find that to be an assanine assertion.

	31-10-2003 01:37									#254
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If people can put up roadside memorials, then I should be able to put up signs extolling the virtues of communism or promoting my web business or telling jokes or just some cool art. The fact that this is public property doesn't mean that I can't just do what I want with it, anymore than I could put things up in a park, a goernment building, a national forest, on top the Washington Monument, etc. Just because someone died on that spot doesn't mean you get to break the rules. Just because you're a Christian doesn't mean you get to break the rules.

Hey -- this actually makes half-sense. But I still disagree.

	31-10-2003 01:47									#255
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quote: Originally posted by orange I honestly don't think he was serious about roadside monuments being distractions...I also find that to be an assanine assertion.

He was serious.

	31-10-2003 01:52									#256
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun But I still disagree.

If you ever agreed with me, I'd have to seriously consider whether or not I was correct.

	31-10-2003 03:38									#257
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quote: Originally posted by orange If people can legally put memorials on the roadside, than anything else should be legal, including a burning cross or a statue of Buddha. You can have it all ways or no way, take your pick.

If a statue of Buddha is somehow commemorative of a dead person, or is otherwise there for a reason, sure. But burning crosses are traditionally symbols used to intimidate black people or their white sympathizers and therefore qualify as hate crimes, not as a peaceful expression of personal opinion. Plus they're a fire hazard. Common sense and discretion always apply in enforcement of the law.

You can argue that permits should be required in any case, and I'd say that's a legitimate point, but beyond that...eh. There's such a thing as applying the right argument for the wrong reasons, and I think what's getting you two steamed here isn't really the violation of proper regulatory procedures.

	31-10-2003 03:55									#258
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chegitz - why do you care? Does it harm you? Are they forcing you to become religious? If you are so weak-willed that a few crosses on the side of the road memorializing someone who died in a car accident are enough to change your mind about religion... The thing about these things is that they are allowed because they are a memorial. The religious part of them is ignored, so there is no endorsement of religion. Whether or not you can put it up is NOT determined by religion.

	31-10-2003 04:33									#259
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If you ever agreed with me, I'd have to seriously consider whether or not I was correct.

Aaaawwww . . . . . your trolling hurts my feelings.



NOT

	31-10-2003 04:52									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Elok If a statue of Buddha is somehow commemorative of a dead person, or is otherwise there for a reason, sure.

It doesn't matter if it is or isn't. And besides that, who decides that a teddy bear is indicative of a dead person while a buddha isn't?

quote: But burning crosses are traditionally symbols used to intimidate black people or their white sympathizers and therefore qualify as hate crimes, not as a peaceful expression of personal opinion.

What something represents is in the eye of the beholder.

quote: Plus they're a fire hazard. Common sense and discretion always apply in enforcement of the law.

You're dodging the issue...

quote: You can argue that permits should be required in any case, and I'd say that's a legitimate point, but beyond that...eh.

Then the permits would have to allow for anything and everything since it is PUBLIC land.

quote: There's such a thing as applying the right argument for the wrong reasons, and I think what's getting you two steamed here isn't really the violation of proper regulatory procedures.

Not at all. I personally don't care, but I don't like the double standard. The law is the law, and the article makes a valid point.

	31-10-2003 04:57									#261
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quote: Not at all. I personally don't care, but I don't like the double standard. The law is the law, and the article makes a valid point.

There IS no double standard. Religion is not a factor in the decision whether or not to allow the memorial - the fact that it is a memorial to a person who died in a car accident there is.

	31-10-2003 05:03									#262
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They can make a memorial on their own property, not public property.

	31-10-2003 05:05									#263
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So you say. However, since the right to make a memorial isn't being restricted to only certain groups, there isn't a double standard.

	31-10-2003 05:08									#264
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so I can erect a memorial on any public property using whatever medium I want? Excellent!

	31-10-2003 05:12									#265
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No, that's not it. For one thing, we are talking about memorials to someone who died right there. Another, they are not where someone would be walking, and not in the middle of a city. For another, it obviously can't be something hateful (some sort of slur).

	31-10-2003 09:21									#266
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker chegitz - why do you care? Does it harm you?

Yes.

	31-10-2003 09:40									#267
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The idea behind allowing people to put memorials at the side of the road is to remind drivers that people get killed by automobile accidents. They remind drivers to take a little more care when they're driving. The memorials are a sort of public service. If you come to a place where there are a bunch of memorials you know that you better stay alert. It just so happens that in the US memorials tend to consist of crosses. The people who put them up aren't really advertising religion, they're putting up a symbol that most people can easily recognize as meaning that someone died at that spot. Putting up flowers works pretty well too, but putting up a sign wouldn't, because drivers might not have time to read the sign.

	31-10-2003 19:22									#268
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yes.

Yeah -- the evil religious people are hiding in your closet at night ready to jump out at you and shout, "BOO!"

	31-10-2003 20:43									#269
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I am gonna strap you down to a Jacksonville street next to a memorial (yours!) if you keep this up. We'll see how long you keep that smart mouth of yours. That's assuming a car doesn't kill you before the sun or red ants.

	31-10-2003 22:07									#270
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I agree that public property isn't a dumping ground to be used for "whatever" by whomever decides to make use of it, but that's not the crux of these guys arguments.

They're saying that the roadside shrines are: a) A hazard, and b) Offensive.

To the first part...yep, they prolly are a hazard, and to combat that particular hazard, we should put it in perspective, by estimating the total number OF roadside shrines, then stacking that number up next to the total number of loud, obnoxious billboards, trees, flowers, and other "distractions" along our public roads, and deal with them in the order of their severity.

Doing so, I think we will find that roadside shrines fall somewhat low on the list.

To the second part, there are LOTS of things that are offensive. Don't look. Simple.

To the argument about un-authorized uses of public land: That's a valid argument. Again, let's stack it up next to the other problems we face as a society and give dealing with it a proportion of resources equal to the relative size of the problem. Probably, it won't get a lot of funding or support, and it shouldn't, until we deal with some of our more pressing problems. It's just not that big a deal.

-=Vel=-
$0.02