29-10-2003 04:49									#181
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ooooohhhh


good point

	29-10-2003 04:54									#182
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Hoenstly how many roadside crosses can maryland possibly have??? If I were to guess, I would say probably around 25...

	29-10-2003 05:11									#183
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quote: It's under the 1st Amendement, the part about not being able to establish religions, which means no religious displays can be put up on public property.

Yes, yes, putting teddy bears and crosses were people were killed is a religious display and establishing religion....

Usually you are sane, che, but on this, you are an utter and total moron .

	29-10-2003 05:12									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Nope, they're just pissed at seeing crosses EVERYWHERE, and people saying "God bless ____" and Xmas, and Easter, and St Patrick's Day. For an athiest its HELLISH having all this Christian stuff hanging around. If you are a Christian, imagine it the other way round - living as a Christian in an Athiest world. People would laugh at you for giving Xmas presents etc... Walk a mile in the other guys shoes... (most atheists were brought up as Christians, so they have already seen the others side) -Jam

Oh yea, lets just ban Christmas. Oh, and fine anyone who says "God Bless You" when you sneeze.

Atheist fundamentalism, a great term that was mentioned earlier. I agree, its gone too far.

	29-10-2003 05:23									#185
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by MrFun [q] then organize mass prayer gatherings right outside their homes . . . . . . And then you could burn them too. Maybe they'll use some faggots for kindling too.

While Che's post was rather trollariffic, it does have a humorous irony to it that I'd like to point out. Cause I think its funny.

Besides homosexual, the original meaning for "faggot" is a collection of sticks and such to use for making fires. So Che unwittingly used that term properly, rather than bigoted, as was his intention.

	29-10-2003 06:16									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Nope, they're just pissed at seeing crosses EVERYWHERE, and people saying "God bless ____" and Xmas, and Easter, and St Patrick's Day. For an athiest its HELLISH having all this Christian stuff hanging around. If you are a Christian, imagine it the other way round - living as a Christian in an Athiest world. People would laugh at you for giving Xmas presents etc... Walk a mile in the other guys shoes... (most atheists were brought up as Christians, so they have already seen the others side) -Jam

Maybe it should be "Hellish" :hint:

Seriously, though, it isn't jack ****. If you or other evangelical atheists have problems with seeing Christian symbology, too damn bad if you're in the US. You don't have a right to not be offended. State endorsement of a religion is a far cry away from failure to hunt down and remove every possible sign, symbol, or mention of that religion in a public or quasi-public context.

Atheism is a simple belief there is no God. If you go beyond that, to having psycholigical issues with other people's beliefs, too damn bad.

	29-10-2003 08:44									#187
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat If you or other evangelical atheists have problems with seeing Christian symbology, too damn bad if you're in the US.

I don't care if somebody does it on his own property. But it's another story all together on public land. For starters, he has no right to do so.

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat State endorsement of a religion is a far cry away from failure to hunt down and remove every possible sign, symbol, or mention of that religion in a public or quasi-public context.

I agree, but why are some of the Christians got all steamed when it was suggested that public areas needed to be cleaned of such items?

	29-10-2003 09:11									#188
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UR -- because individuals who express their religion in public schools, and other public places, such as road sides, is not involving any government's establishment of a specific religion.

Freedom of religion includes individuals having the right to express their beliefs in ways that does not infringe on other people's rights.

And no one has the right to be free from being offended. And if there are atheists out there that find some offense whenever they see someone expressing their religious beliefs, I wager that those atheists have some personal insecurity problems of their own.

	29-10-2003 09:21									#189
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And if those atheists really insist on being obnoxious over a non-issue to satisfy their own insecurity, maybe I should rub it in for them some more.

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	29-10-2003 09:26									#190
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun UR -- because individuals who express their religion in public schools, and other public places, such as road sides, is not involving any government's establishment of a specific religion.

Certainly.

Still, an individual cannot just nail a cross at the end of a hallway in a public school and leave it there, right?

	29-10-2003 09:28									#191
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Maybe if someone was shot there.

And I'm with you MrFun. Maybe my avatar will raise some fundy atheist ire.

	29-10-2003 12:28									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Certainly. Still, an individual cannot just nail a cross at the end of a hallway in a public school and leave it there, right?

Nailing holes in the walls of public property by an individual who is not the owner of that property is illegal anyway -- jackass.

I'm talking about personal expression through an individual's clothing, speech, and so forth that does not infringe on other people's rights.

	29-10-2003 13:16									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I don't care if somebody does it on his own property. But it's another story all together on public land. For starters, he has no right to do so.

Not necessarily correct. The land use "issue" needs to be examined on a case by case basis, and some of these are not on public lands, but private easements, or private FSA land holdings adjoining public lands. Even on public lands, some private uses are permitted, and some may not be significant enough or permannet enough to require an easement or other formal permitting process. The mere presence of a religious symbol is also not disqualifying, in and of itself.

quote: I agree, but why are some of the Christians got all steamed when it was suggested that public areas needed to be cleaned of such items?

Is there really such a "need?" I've yet to see any that constituted a real safety hazard, or interfered with driving on or maintaining the roadway. And I've seen quite a few.

I don't look at it from a Christian standpoint - for example, I think it was perfectly correct that the 5000 lb Ten Commandments sculpture needed to be removed from the 'Bammy state supreme court rotunda, due to the intent and prominence given it. There is a question of scale, and some of these "atheist organizations" (seems to be an oxymoron, how / why do you form an organization on the basis of what you don't believe in?) give the appearance that they'll do anything for publicity and/or to attack religious symbology anywhere they can. Nutbags draw a response from other nutbags, but sometimes they also draw a response from people who are just tired of nutbags with an agenda, but no sense of perspective.

	29-10-2003 13:24									#194
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's under the 1st Amendement, the part about not being able to establish religions, which means no religious displays can be put up on public property. Crosses have been specifically forbidden by every court ruling for the past 30+ years.

Actually, I'd say it was protected by the 1st amendment, under "freedom of speech".

You know -- the most important one?

	29-10-2003 13:30									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Still, an individual cannot just nail a cross at the end of a hallway in a public school and leave it there, right?

At the last public high school I attended, in good ol' liberal coastal northern California, the official campus Jesus-freak group had regular meetings after class. Nobody got bent, and it was perfectly legal, because they had no more nor less standing than any other officially recognized student group that met after school. There was no pressure to join from staff, no disapproval from staff towards the 99% or so who didn't bother, and I didn't get in any more trouble for punching out the leader* of the student group than for any other student I wailed on.

* In his proselytizing to me and a bunch of other kids, he went on about how great God was and how God intervened in everything in his life, so that when he was preaching to some gang member (we didn't even have such a thing then, but that's beside the point), the kid wanted to punch him, and tried, but couldn't, because God prevented him.

I luaghed in his face and said that if it wasn't total BS, the kid stopped because he didn't have the heart to punch out some little **** who stood there and wouldn't even defend himself. The moron insisted it was God protecting him because he was saving sinners. A discussion ensued, whereupon he told me God wouldn't let me hit him either... The first time, I pulled the punch, because the arrogant little **** was just gonna stand there, arms outstretched, and take it. Then he told me "see, God wouldn't let you hit me" so I told him "it wasn't God, it was me, you dumbass" and I knocked him on his ass.

I started the obligatory march towards the assistant principal's office, and when the kid was summoned, his explanation was that it wasn't a fight, it was from a religious discussion, and that God had used me to punish him for his arrogance.

	29-10-2003 17:09									#196
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat ...God had used me to punish him for his arrogance.

Reminds me of the time I was at an outdoor restaurant discussing ways of saving the Mormons in Salt Lake City. After my friend and I figured out all the ways possible to save the misdirected reprobates from hell I got up from the table, caught my foot under the table and fell on my ass.

God can work in mysterious ways

Then there was the time a little kid I was trying to teach some respect tried to hit me while giving me an obscene gesture. He slipped and fell in some mud and couldn't get his footing until he was covered in it. For some reason he respected me after that...

The problem with being used by God to correct someone's arrogance is that we are usually next in line for the lesson. Then there was the time I called this kid "fatty". He used the fat well...

	29-10-2003 17:10									#197
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mtg.

amazing how god can be used to justify everything.

	29-10-2003 20:48									#198
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Er, does anybody here know of atheists so hardwired that they refer to the city of "Mr. Louis, Missouri"? I've heard that such people exist-the remark about San Francisco brought it to mind...

	29-10-2003 21:14									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Er, does anybody here know of atheists so hardwired that they refer to the city of "Mr. Louis, Missouri"? I've heard that such people exist-the remark about San Francisco brought it to mind...

Surely you mean "Señor Francisco".

	29-10-2003 22:08									#200
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP While Che's post was rather trollariffic, it does have a humorous irony to it that I'd like to point out. Cause I think its funny. Besides homosexual, the original meaning for "faggot" is a collection of sticks and such to use for making fires. So Che unwittingly used that term properly, rather than bigoted, as was his intention.

You think I wasn't aware of the double meaning? I am a master punster.

	29-10-2003 22:10									#201
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun And if those atheists really insist on being obnoxious over a non-issue to satisfy their own insecurity, maybe I should rub it in for them some more.

You are a bad Christian. Now go reread the New Testiment, especially the part where he exorts you not to practice your religion on the corner like a hypocrite, but secretly, like a thief in the night.

	29-10-2003 22:14									#202
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Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
Forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us unless they insist on being obnoxious over a non-issue to satisfy their own insecurity of course, in that case we will rub it in for them some more.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil. Amen.

	29-10-2003 22:15									#203
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Actually, I'd say it was protected by the 1st amendment, under "freedom of speech". You know -- the most important one?

Every attempt to erect a cross on public land has ben struck down by the courts.

All these Christians love God so m,uch they're trying to send him some more souls from the people who get killed by distracted drivers.

	29-10-2003 22:49									#204
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara All these Christians love God so m,uch they're trying to send him some more souls from the people who get killed by distracted drivers.

I'm sorry but if you or anyone else is so distracted by road signs to such an extent as to seriously impair your driving perhaps none of you should be on the the road to begin with.

	29-10-2003 22:56									#205
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'm sorry but if you or anyone else is so distracted by road signs to such an extent as to seriously impair your driving perhaps none of you should be on the the road to begin with.

3rd time with the same troll. Boy you people are getting tired.

I'd be perfectly happy for these people to have their licenses taken away. Make the road safer for those of us on bicycles.

	30-10-2003 00:01									#206
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You are a bad Christian. Now go reread the New Testiment, especially the part where he exorts you not to practice your religion on the corner like a hypocrite, but secretly, like a thief in the night.

Uh, it's the second coming of Christ that was to be compared to a thief in the night, just FYI. With that said, please don't deliberately misinterpret the text. He also said something along the lines of "Go forth and make apostles of all nations," that whole thing about letting your light shine by placing it on a hill, etc. The passage you refer to (part of the sermon on the mount, IIRC) is an admonition against letting it go to your head, not against trying to convert or convince others, or display your faith under any circumstances whatsoever. The point of hiding your prayer is to avoid the temptation to set yourself up as a saint rather than to do good for its own sake. A violation of the commandment would be something like a billboard saying, "[name of Christian] prays thrice a day. Why don't you?"

It's similar to the passage in one of Paul's epistles where he instructs us to moderate our shows of outward worship to avoid tempting others to idolatry or irreverence.

	30-10-2003 00:06									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Stuie Surely you mean "Señor Francisco".

Señor literally means "lord"

As in "The Lord" = El Señor.

Maybe St. Francis would appreciate the promotion, but methinks his boss wouldn't.

	30-10-2003 00:09									#208
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Every attempt to erect a cross on public land has ben struck down by the courts.

Not so. There are still standing religious symbols of all sorts, in many different contexts.

Every attempt to erect a cross on public land, when doing so has been held to be related to an establishment of religion, has been struck down. There's a subtle difference.

	30-10-2003 00:21									#209
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I really don't care about the supposed violation of the 1st Amendment, but it's fun to troll.

I'm actually far more concerned with distractions to the idiot drivers I must navigate between. Heavy metal box v. bag of flesh are not odds I like.

	30-10-2003 03:36									#210
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara 3rd time with the same troll. Boy you people are getting tired.

It's not a troll and if you have the same problem on a bike you shouldn't be using one either.