28-10-2003 12:26									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Okay, Ned, I see your point. But I think those protesters are representative only of a small and ill-informed minority. Of course, they make for exciting news (which, especially on TV, is about conflict and drama, not information and analysis), so we hear more from them than from more sober liberal and progressive voices.

	28-10-2003 13:02									#62
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Actually, if JFK was a liberal, than so am I. But today's Democrats, by in large, are far to the left of JFK. The meaning of the term has changed over the years.

	28-10-2003 16:56									#63
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

ned, you're a neocon. now, a lot of conservative pundits have said that neoconservatives are merely liberals who grew up, decided to be more realistic, and then go do what they've always been doing, which is to spread american values everywhere.

bay of pigs notwithstanding, kennedy probably wasn't too interested in nation-building, just getting rid of the communist scourge, which wasn't even his idea to begin with--it was trumans.

	28-10-2003 21:48									#64
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Dissident What's wrong with Saddam Husseing getting back into power?

Now that the war and the bloodbath has been done, and now that there is no way to resurrect the dead and have the cripples walk, we should at leastcapitalize on the little result the war has brought.

Saddam is gone. This may be only good thing that comes from the war. Let's not waste it.

	28-10-2003 22:11									#65
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yeah, Truman probably felt "betrayed" by Stalin. After all, we helped him fight the NAZIs, but we believe Stalin had to know that the reason we were fighting was for the liberation of Poland (and France, etc.). When Stalin refused to pull out of Eastern Europe and allow them freedom, Truman probably was nagged by the belief that Roosevelt would never have let Stalin get away with what he did. Thus the resistance to communism became personal. Just like his later struggle with presidential-candidate-to-be, MacArthur.

	28-10-2003 22:35									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Liberals right now are furious that, having proceeded with Iraq to begin with, the Bush administration has done such a half-assed job of it.

Really? What about the new currency? And how about those thousands of new businesses that are opening up in Iraq? I see nothing half assed about the job being done. The only half assed answers I see are coming from the democratic candidate debates.

quote: Liberals are furious that they were ignored when they said "it's going to be a bloodbath," and are still being ignored when they say, "see?

That is ****ing laughable. The same idiots who said that this would be a Vietnam type of situation? Wrong. I would rather say I told you so. There has been what? Less than 400 casualities for the coalition... and the opposition to coalition troops is weak to begin with.

quote: This should have been handled differently."

How so? I would like to hear something plausable, instead of the same BS rhetoric that comes from the left.

quote: But we are, most of us, sensible enough to know that a US pullout at this point will just turn Iraq into that other shining star of Bush foreign policy, Afghanistan. Nobody wants that.

Idiot. The US hasn't pulled out of Afghanistan.

quote: Still, even though we too ar committed to seeing this thing through, it doesn't chang the fact that the Bushies were wrong, wrong, wrong: wrong about the WMD, wrong about the way our "liberating" troops in Baghdad would be treated, wrong about how many troops we would need, wrong about how much it was going to cost, wrong about how long it was all going to take. We are like passengers in a plane being piloted by a drunk; of course we can't just get out, but don't expect us to be happy about the situation. edited for typos

Do you have anything useful to say? Or is it the same old nonsense rhetoric?

	28-10-2003 22:53									#67
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Fez There has been what? Less than 400 casualities for the coalition...

And on the other side?

	28-10-2003 22:58									#68
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor And on the other side?

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Remember that battle at the Baghdad airport? They say 2,500 Iraqi soldiers were killed in that alone.

Anti american crap... that is what this board is full of.

	28-10-2003 23:02									#69
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

There is one other valid point though from those supporting Bush's policies -- a new nation is not built over night.

We need to remember that it took about 13 years from the end of the American Revolution, to the inaguaration of George Washington, before we established a new government.

Today, too many Americans seem to have this "instant gratification" attitude, in that if something takes longer than a few hours, days, or months -- depending on what that is -- then it's too much trouble to be worth it.

Nation building does not take months -- it takes years usually.


But I am opposed to the Bush's administration of misinformation and deception -- not the slow pace of making progress in Iraq.

	28-10-2003 23:05									#70
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Fez What the hell is that supposed to mean?

It is supposed to mean you don't judge if a war is a "bloodbath" or not only by looking at one side's casualties.

According to a recent poll, 30% of the Iraqis have lost a relative / friend or neighbour in the one month of war. I say it looks like blood has been spilled. In gobs.

	28-10-2003 23:15									#71
	Got spare money?

Spiffor, let me ask you... who were the ones using human shields? The Iraqi troops and militias. Who were the ones using hospitals? This was no ordinary war... don't try to paint it as anything else. Saddam and his men used dirty tactics.

Also according to recent polls, most Iraqis want the US to stay in. They know if the US pulls out there will be a total anarchy.

	28-10-2003 23:18									#72
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It isn't a "blood bath" on any side, by any standard.
"Blood bath" would be like what Hussein did to his people following Gulf War 1.

	28-10-2003 23:21									#73
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I hate it when a flood of new posts come immediately after I posted my thoughts.


sigh

	29-10-2003 00:21									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand "Blood bath" would be like what Hussein did to his people following Gulf War 1.

According to the same poll, 50% of the Iraqis have lost a relative / friend / neighbour under Saddam's reign. Since Saddam's reign lasted 20+ years, whereas Gulf War 2 lasted one month, this war strikes me as being quite bloody.

Of course, no journalist thought of mentioning the thousands (tens of thousands?) Iraqi soldiers who died during the war, leaving orphans and widows. Nobody thought worth mentioning that a great many people will now be crippled for the rest of their lives because of the war.

I think the figures of the poll (the only way to approach Iraqi casualties, as there has been no body count) are striking. 50% for more than 20 years of a reign of terror. And 30% for a mere month of a "clean war". Yeah

	29-10-2003 00:27									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It is supposed to mean you don't judge if a war is a "bloodbath" or not only by looking at one side's casualties. According to a recent poll, 30% of the Iraqis have lost a relative / friend or neighbour in the one month of war. I say it looks like blood has been spilled. In gobs.

Cite for the poll?

	29-10-2003 00:32									#76
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor According to the same poll, 50% of the Iraqis have lost a relative / friend / neighbour under Saddam's reign. Since Saddam's reign lasted 20+ years, whereas Gulf War 2 lasted one month, this war strikes me as being quite bloody. Of course, no journalist thought of mentioning the thousands (tens of thousands?) Iraqi soldiers who died during the war, leaving orphans and widows. Nobody thought worth mentioning that a great many people will now be crippled for the rest of their lives because of the war. I think the figures of the poll (the only way to approach Iraqi casualties, as there has been no body count) are striking. 50% for more than 20 years of a reign of terror. And 30% for a mere month of a "clean war". Yeah

Several hundred thousand during the reign of terror. Entire Iraqi army at time of GW2 less than 200,000. So somethings wrong with your numbers.

Comparing murders of civilians, (for the most part) against deaths of soldiers in combat.

	29-10-2003 19:16									#77
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor According to the same poll, 50% of the Iraqis have lost a relative / friend / neighbour under Saddam's reign. Since Saddam's reign lasted 20+ years, whereas Gulf War 2 lasted one month, this war strikes me as being quite bloody. Of course, no journalist thought of mentioning the thousands (tens of thousands?) Iraqi soldiers who died during the war, leaving orphans and widows. Nobody thought worth mentioning that a great many people will now be crippled for the rest of their lives because of the war. I think the figures of the poll (the only way to approach Iraqi casualties, as there has been no body count) are striking. 50% for more than 20 years of a reign of terror. And 30% for a mere month of a "clean war". Yeah

AFP

'An estimated 13,000 Iraqis, including as many as 4,300 non-combatants, were killed during the major combat phase of the war in Iraq, a research group found in a study.


The Project on Defense Alternatives said its estimate was based on a review of US combat data, battlefield press reports, and Iraqi hospital surveys. The study covered the period from March 19 to the end of April.


The Pentagon has refrained from making estimates of Iraqi dead in either the 1991 Gulf War or the latest conflict.

The study, authored by Carl Coneta, found that deaths of Iraqi civilians who did not take up arms in the fighting was as high or higher than in the 1991 Gulf War despite advances in precision weaponry.


"On the Iraqi side, a review and analysis of the available evidence shows that approximately 11,000 to 15,000 Iraqis, combatants and non-combatants, were killed in the course of major combat operations," the study said. '

	29-10-2003 21:57									#78
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Thanks for the figures LOTM
The poll I cited was the one The Diplomat mentioned in his thread "the truth about Iraq"

	29-10-2003 22:21									#79
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Sharpton, who appeared at the anti-war march and who supports and immediate pull-out, appeared last night on the O'Reilly show. When the discussion got to Iraq, Sharpton was on message - talking about the wrongness of the War and that we should not support a failed policy but should end it and withdraw. He said, just turn Iraq over to the UN.

Then O'Reilly asked about Saddam.

Sharpton essentially gave him a blank stare. After a while, he began to repeat his message without answering the question.

	29-10-2003 22:24									#80
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

did you expect anything substantial from sharpton?

you can only squeeze so much sherry from a rock, you know.

	29-10-2003 22:41									#81
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Obviously, Sharpton and that evil, Serbian leprechaun Kuchinich don't represent the majority of Democratic sentiment regarding Iraq.

Hopefully, a Clark/Edwards ticket will rise above this morass.

	29-10-2003 22:49									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay Obviously, Sharpton and that evil, Serbian leprechaun Kuchinich don't represent the majority of Democratic sentiment regarding Iraq. Hopefully, a Clark/Edwards ticket will rise above this morass.

I doubt it, at least for a while any ways. All the dems running for president right now, all they do is attack President Bush mainly with the Iraq situation in an effort to appeal to their base of support, the bush haters in the Dem party. The one who never wanted to go into Iraq in the first place.

The only person I have heard so far say what he would do in Iraq is Sharpton, but his solution would fail in so many ways and we would end up with a bigger mess then we do now.

	29-10-2003 23:49									#83
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The true test of leadership is expressing a vision and concrete steps to achieve ones goals.

None of the Democrat candidates have expressed a vision on Iraq except for perhaps Sharpton and Kucinich. We have no idea as to what Dean or Clark or any of the other want to achieve with Iraq or what they would do with Iraq if they were president.

	30-10-2003 00:46									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

and may the local population be entitled to its own goals ?

it strikes me a little odd that oil is flowing from the oilfields of iraq but many of the people of bagdad still have no running water...

so what goals are you talking about ?

	30-10-2003 01:11									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Ned The true test of leadership is expressing a vision and concrete steps to achieve ones goals. None of the Democrat candidates have expressed a vision on Iraq except for perhaps Sharpton and Kucinich. We have no idea as to what Dean or Clark or any of the other want to achieve with Iraq or what they would do with Iraq if they were president.

Neither has Bush and co, they had visions all right but they seemed drug induced. I didn't see concrete steps before the war, and sure haven't after either.

	30-10-2003 01:52									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by dannubis and may the local population be entitled to its own goals ? it strikes me a little odd that oil is flowing from the oilfields of iraq but many of the people of bagdad still have no running water... so what goals are you talking about ?

Iraq is still only pumping less than 40% of the oil they produced pre-war. Im sure theyre well over that on water. Are youre suggesting that they should not prduce any oil till water is at 100%? Are you aware that they need oil to produce electricity, and electricity to pump and purify water?

	30-10-2003 03:08									#87
	Support Apolyton

Any figures or casualities for Iraqi Soldiers/Civilians are not credible and not backed up. I think the casuality rate for civilians was much lower, IMHO.

	30-10-2003 10:26									#88
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by dannubis and may the local population be entitled to its own goals ? it strikes me a little odd that oil is flowing from the oilfields of iraq but many of the people of bagdad still have no running water... so what goals are you talking about ?

Several months ago, Bush said our goal was to defeat Saddam, install Democracy, and then leave. Today, I see no clearly defined goal. Bush seems to have become a victim of mission creep. Instead of talking about withdrawing as soon as the new Iraqi government conducts elections, all Bush now talks about is that Iraq has become the frontline in the war on terror. What this implies to me is that we will not withdraw even after a new Iraqi government is elected.

What I would still like to hear is his plan for withdrawing United States troops from Iraq. Honestly this would involve creating sufficient security forces in Iraq so they can carry on the battle against the Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda without our help. What I am looking for is a new "Vietnamization" policy.

At least when Nixon ran against the Johnson/Humphrey régime in '68, he had a plan to end the war even know he was not more specific. I think that the Democrats would be entitled to criticize Bush on the basis that Bush does not have an exit strategy if they had one of their own. Simply turning the matter over to the UN if the UN itself has no exit strategy would potentially allow the return of Saddam Hussein. When has the UN ever conducted a successful war? Can you imagine an armed force led by a French general?

Turning Iraq over to the UN while an active guerrilla war is underway and before a new Iraq government has an army of its own is a formula for disaster.

	30-10-2003 12:14									#89
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

"Several months ago, Bush said our goal was to defeat Saddam, install Democracy, and then leave."

Well you didn't really believe that rubbish, did yu?

	30-10-2003 12:24									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Ned The true test of leadership is expressing a vision and concrete steps to achieve ones goals. None of the Democrat candidates have expressed a vision on Iraq except for perhaps Sharpton and Kucinich. We have no idea as to what Dean or Clark or any of the other want to achieve with Iraq or what they would do with Iraq if they were president.

Given that the situation they would inherit in January 2005 is a bit different than the one that pertains now, anyone with an announced set of goals now, for what they would do starting in '05, is a fool.

Also, there's a little fundamental sticking point (and I'm not 100% sure you're trolling this time, Ned ), and that is the moral/pragmatic issues involved in having "goals" for a foreign country we invaded and conquered for no particular good reason other than it's ruler was an ******* and it sits on a bunch of oil.

Colonialism is just soooooo... like, last century.