31-10-2003 01:50									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Of course, Che, the truth hurts.

Must be why you avoid it then.

	31-10-2003 01:50									#122
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MtG, I must admit, I do not understand your hostility to Vietnamization. I think that that is exactly what we need now in Iraq. What real objection do you have to building up the Iraqi military and withdrawing?

	31-10-2003 01:51									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Ned MtG, I must admit, I do not understand your hostility to Vietnamization. I think that that is exactly what we need now in Iraq. What real objection do you have to building up the Iraqi military and withdrawing?

Right now is not a good idea because the new Iraqi army isn't even close to being ready.

	31-10-2003 01:52									#124
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Must be why you avoid it then.

Che, let's drop this and discuss solutions, not vendettas.

	31-10-2003 01:55									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Che, let's drop this and discuss solutions, not vendettas.

I'm Italian. We live for vendetta's.

	31-10-2003 01:59									#126
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Right now is not a good idea because the new Iraqi army isn't even close to being ready.

Agreed. But we must, I submit, continue to say that this is our plan and actually implement it. I, for one, do not want to see US troops in Iraq indefinitely. Again, I agree with the Dems that Bush's problem is that he seems to have abandoned the idea of getting out of Iraq.

The idea that some Democrats have suggested in turning this over to the UN is also unavailing in that the UN has already virtually pulled out of Iraq. The UN is good only at "police" actions, at best. War is not something the UN can do. Even de Villepin today has said that a US pullout from Iraq would be catastophic.

	31-10-2003 02:03									#127
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Five years of ****ing around then leaving under essentially the same conditions is not "determination" although it might be "single-minded" And for all of Nixon's "great" "efforts" (since he was the proto-chicken-hawk, managing to find a billet as a stateside government lawyer in WW2),

Ok - MTG.

So, since you like to toss around the term chicken hawk. Am I one? You must know by now that im a hawk on Iraq. I never served in the military. Im too old too now. I was within a few miles of the Pentagon on 9/11, but by that definition Wolfie wouldnt be a chicken hawk. Evidently that doesnt count. Strangely enough even Wolfie coming under fire in Iraq hasnt de-chickened him.

So - do I have no right to express my opinions on Iraq? Am i a chicken hawk?

	31-10-2003 02:04									#128
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Right now is not a good idea because the new Iraqi army isn't even close to being ready.

They speak arabic, they know the local culture, etc. I suspect we have waited TOO long to use them. The people in Iraq, from top to bottom, seem to be complaining that we're not giving them enough opportunity to defend themselves.

	31-10-2003 02:06									#129
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Turning the situation over to the U.N. will not likely result is dramatically lower numbers of troops, though it would likely increase the number of countries willing to send troops. Also, the U.N. has a bit more experience putting devestated countries back together. It would reduce anger towards us in the Arab world, thus decreasing the potential pool of terrorist requits. Finally, it wouldn't cost us so much at a time when this war is a financial drain.

	31-10-2003 02:17									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Ned MtG, I must admit, I do not understand your hostility to Vietnamization. I think that that is exactly what we need now in Iraq. What real objection do you have to building up the Iraqi military and withdrawing?

I know a bit more about the subject of Vietnamization than you will ever read in history books, Ned. I spent the better part of a decade actively involved in Agent Orange and other Vietnam related veteran's disability issues. "Vietnamization" was a complete and utter fraud, and there was absolutely no reason other than national ego and posturing (that convinced nobody of import) to squader another 20,000 and more American lives, let alone countless Vietnamese lives. What were we worried about? That the commies would overrun Saigon?

Comparing Iraq to Vietnam, and purported exit strategies for the two conflicts is braindead. The only similarities is that there are an unspecified number of non-white people who don't like us and who are occasionally expressive of that fact. The rest of it is like comparing apples to martian soil samples.

	31-10-2003 02:24									#131
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark So - do I have no right to express my opinions on Iraq? Am i a chicken hawk?

If you're a policy maker willing to send other people to die to do a job you found it "inconvenient" to your personal plans to do when it was your time, and you give more credence to advice from similar non-serving ideologues who also found their personal ambitions too precious to risk getting their balls shot off, while giving short shrift to advice from professionals who've had their lives on the line, then you are a chickenhawk.

	31-10-2003 02:24									#132
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More evidence that the attacks were by AQ terrorists

"Each vehicle used in the attacks on the International Red Cross headquarters and four Iraqi police stations was loaded with 1,000 pounds of plastic explosives, the official said. The explosives are being traced by the FBI (news - web sites) and are believed to have originated outside of Iraq.


Prior to Monday, a series of bombings in Iraq used old Soviet-era munitions, rocket-propelled grenades or rockets that are more readily available within Iraq. Plastic explosives are more powerful for their size than many conventional explosives and are a favorite of many terror groups.

...



The official said the bombings have not yet been conclusively linked to al-Qaida. But the type of explosives used and the tactics suggest similarities with al-Qaida's May 12 bombings in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, the official said.


Witness accounts suggest that in at least three of the Baghdad bombings, a second vehicle was used to either distract or confuse perimeter guards, allowing the suicide bomber to slip through and detonate the device. The Riyadh attackers also used lead vehicles as distractions to get explosive-laden vehicles through security. '



1. Use of plastic explosives
2. Coordinated attacks
3. Use of a vehicle to distract guards.

	31-10-2003 02:29									#133
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat If you're a policy maker willing to send other people to die to do a job you found it "inconvenient" to your personal plans to do when it was your time, and you give more credence to advice from similar non-serving ideologues who also found their personal ambitions too precious to risk getting their balls shot off, while giving short shrift to advice from professionals who've had their lives on the line, then you are a chickenhawk.

Im a voter, so i guess in that sense im a policy maker. When i was 18 the US was at peace, and most people who joined the military did so cause they found it convenient. When 9/11 happened I was too old to join (and yes I looked it up) And yes, in forming my opinions i give credence to those who never fought as well as to those who did. I also recognize that the military leadership has its own institutional agendas, and that generals and JCS members are highly political, and their advice isnt guaranteed cause they led a platoon in Nam 35 years ago.

	31-10-2003 02:31									#134
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MtG, alright. What would you have done in Vietnam if you were elected president in 1968?

	31-10-2003 02:33									#135
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Ned, are you assuming that Nixon didn't run, and thus didn't sabotage the Paris Peace talks in 1968? Then all MtG had to do was withdraw. The war would have been over for us.

	31-10-2003 02:34									#136
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat If you're a policy maker willing to send other people to die to do a job you found it "inconvenient" to your personal plans to do when it was your time, and you give more credence to advice from similar non-serving ideologues who also found their personal ambitions too precious to risk getting their balls shot off, while giving short shrift to advice from professionals who've had their lives on the line, then you are a chickenhawk.

I would point out that Paul Wolfowitz has been under enemy fire twice now - once on 9/11 at the Pentagon, and now in Baghdad. That beats quite a large number of the folk who wore the uniform.

	31-10-2003 02:40									#137
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Che, I agree that turning the matter over to the UN will lessen Arab hostility to the occupation. However, Saddam would still fight to get back into power. I have no confidence that the UN could win the war without the US military.

Now this is where I get queasy about a UN solution. I do not trust turning over the US military to UN command. Can you imagine Kofi Annan being in charge of whether US troops live or die? Can you agree to give the UN carte blanc over how much the US taxpayer has to spend in Iraq? What if, for example, Annan wanted to raise the troop levels to 500,000 or more and could command US units to move from the United States to Iraq?

	31-10-2003 02:42									#138
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Ned, are you assuming that Nixon didn't run, and thus didn't sabotage the Paris Peace talks in 1968? Then all MtG had to do was withdraw. The war would have been over for us.

Che, every time you raised this issue I have asked you what was the NV offer on the table at the time that was purportedly rejected by SV?

	31-10-2003 02:51									#139
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LoTM, I have a hard time understanding MtG because he seems to be inconsistent. I still would like to understand why he thinks building up the SV or Iraqi military and withdrawing US troops was or is a bad policy.

	31-10-2003 02:52									#140
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Salaam Pax (an Iraqi blogger)


"This is another thing I would like people to pay some respect to. Iraqi Police kick major ass. Much respect. Wherever you go now and open up that subject you will see a lot of sympathy with those brave men and women and a total incomprehension to what this so called resistance is doing. They are killing Iraqis now. They say Jihad against the Infidel Occupier and they go kill those Iraqi police men. The Baghdad Hotel, the Turkish embassy and many more. It is not the Infidel the attackers are killing but Iraqis and this just might be good because the general sentiment now is “what the **** do the Jihadis think they are doing?”. I wrote or said some time ago that most Iraqis are just sitting on the fence, well the last couple of attacks are tipping the balance against the Jihadis because they are killing all those Iraqis, they are putting bombs in streets and in front of schools, threatening to bomb banks where Iraqis are standing in line waiting to get their new Iraqi Dinars. So as we say here [biha saleh – something good will come out of it] maybe the people who are dying in those attacks are helping us understand that what those saboteurs are doing is just pure evil, telling people they are Muslim Jihadis doesn’t cut it anymore because they are killing civilians indiscriminately. "

	31-10-2003 02:58									#141
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Iraq Hit by String of Deadly Explosions
Thu Oct 30,12:54 PM ET

By SLOBODAN LEKIC, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraq (news - web sites) was hit by a string of explosions Thursday that set a freight train on fire, killed a U.S. soldier in a military convoy and ripped through Baghdad's Old Quarter. Another blast injured two U.S. soldiers on a military police patrol.

(snip)

The escalating violence has unnerved many of Baghdad's 5 million people. Many parents are not sending their children to school for fear of further bombings.

"Today most of my friends did not come to school," said 18-year-old Duha Khalid at the Al-Khalisa girl's high school, located near a police station. "We heard rumors about big bombs that will go off at the start of next week."

There also was an apparent assassination attempt Wednesday night against an aide to Iraq's most influential Shiite Muslim cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali Hussein al-Sistani.

The cleric, Abdel Mehdi al Karbali, suffered head wounds in the explosion of a hand grenade thrown at him and his bodyguards.

The Iraqi Governing Council, meanwhile, called on neighboring nations to crack down on infiltrators crossing into Iraq and provide Iraqi authorities with information about former regime figures who may be hiding on their soil.

"There are more than 300 terrorists arrested thus far who have (foreign) nationalities," said Mouwafak al-Rabii, a governing council member. "We do our part to protect our borders and we hope our neighbors do their part."


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...e_mi_ea/iraq_56

	31-10-2003 03:02									#142
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****.

	31-10-2003 03:03									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Che, every time you raised this issue I have asked you what was the NV offer on the table at the time that was purportedly rejected by SV?

And I've told you. The exact same settlement that was reached in 1973.

	31-10-2003 03:06									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Now this is where I get queasy about a UN solution. I do not trust turning over the US military to UN command. Can you imagine Kofi Annan being in charge of whether US troops live or die? Can you agree to give the UN carte blanc over how much the US taxpayer has to spend in Iraq? What if, for example, Annan wanted to raise the troop levels to 500,000 or more and could command US units to move from the United States to Iraq?

How would it be any different than other places where U.S. troops operate under a U.N. flag? Most likely, the Security Council would designate an American as the commander. Kofi Annan has nothing to do with the UNSC, really.

	31-10-2003 03:11									#145
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Che, if this is true, I have no idea why SV walked? What better deal could they have gotten?

	31-10-2003 03:16									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Che, if this is true, I have no idea why SV walked? What better deal could they have gotten?

I don't know. Let's look up the Paris Peace Accords and see?

	31-10-2003 03:16									#147
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara How would it be any different than other places where U.S. troops operate under a U.N. flag? Most likely, the Security Council would designate an American as the commander. Kofi Annan has nothing to do with the UNSC, really.

Then, what in the world is everyone complaining about? We (the Authority) are already operating under an UN mandate that ends when the Iraqi's elect their own government. The UN has imposed a timetable and has required the Iraqi's to submit their new constitution to UN security council. The only thing left is to turn the US military command over to the UN.

	31-10-2003 03:19									#148
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Iraq is not Germany. It is not Korea, Vietnam or even Somalia. The closest comparison would be Afghanistan - Sovjet's invasion, that is. An easy victory, followed by a long occupation and a slow, grinding guerilla war where the occupation forces got new coffins to send home every day, until they eventually decided to leave.

	31-10-2003 03:19									#149
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Just as an aside, Che, the SK's did not want to accept the truce we negotiated with NK and China. Why? They wanted to continue the fight to take all of Korea - at the cost, of course, of the US treasury and manpower. I hope Nixon did not offer SV all of Vietnam.

	31-10-2003 03:22									#150
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http://vietnam.vassar.edu/doc16.html
This is the best I could find.

Check out Chapter V, Article 15.
The reunification of Viet-Nam shall be carried out step by step through peaceful means on the basis of discussions and agreements between North and South Viet-Nam, without coercion or annexation by either party, and without foreign interference.

The South didn't want to unify (hell, that's what caused the war in the 1st place), since the bulk of the population was in the North, and any fair election would have resulted in Communist victory, and the election probably wouldn't have been fair.