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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
For every Rider they build we'll most likley build I dunno how many knights let alone defensive units.
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But it would be better to just secure the chokepoints and never have to build such an expensive army.
If we secure the chokepoints, we can agree to a 100-turn NAP with CFC, because we would never have any reason to attack them. We would be confident enough in our strategic position that doing so would be just plain wasteful. That's the point of getting BoP for ourselves.
The situation is quite different for CFC. They cannot win this game with the land mass West of the chokepoints. They know this. Therefore the only reason they want either chokepoint is to ensure access to us for when they build up enough Riders
For CFC, the chokepoints are offensive; for us, they are defensive.
CFC is not an equal partner, because they are not (and will not be) as strong as us. If they think they should be then they should wake up and accept reality.
So, how about we just tell them what I've just posted here (especially regarding the chokepoints), and see what they have to say?
Dominae
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:31
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In favour of giving CFC one of the choke points:
If they attack, they will concentrate all their offence in one area and go for broke, I would imagine. We will have 2 choke points and various lake-side coastal cities that we would want to defend. No amount of planning would prevent them from taking either Equilibrium or Balance of Power. Claiming that having both assures us of safety is, I fear, a false claim. We would not be assured of safety in any event.
However, by cooperating with them and demonstrating that we will treat them fairly (in their eyes) we put off the possibility of them ever wanting to attack us.
Furthermore, we gain a tech ally in a 3.5 way game. The chances of CGN and GWT ever trusting each other enough to fully cooperate are slim. That we could not twist the situation of us with our junior partner gaining a significant advantage over the other two are great. The value of CFC increases if one of the other two cripples or eliminates the other. In that case it would be us and CFC vs 1 of them. In that event it would not be even close to a contest. Two civs researching will always beat one.
All that be as it may, it is not assured that we can maneuver CFC the way we would idealy like. I would say we have a good chance, but it is not assured. The benefits of CFC as a tech vassal/ally are obvious. The question is, can we make it stick?
In either case, we are going to need an extensive army. Reduced cost of troops is a red herring whether we have both choke points or not. One fortress does not the fate of an empire assure. It is only by the strength and quantity of steel in the field that we are assured of safety.
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
Again, I do NOT support taking out CFC now when we don't know what will happen in the other continent. Also considering that we would have to also betray them by violating a NAP and the alliance that we have been taken steps to build, an alliance mind you that was well endorsed not only by Togas but by nye and MrWIA IIRC.
I will have no part in a team that betrays its allies just so blatantly. We already got a rep hit with GWT for violating a NAP, imagine what the others would think after this.  |
No one is going off to back stab anyone. However, if the will of the team is that we eliminate CFC, then Togas, Dubya, you and I will have to accept it. It would have to be done properly, of course. However, we take our marching orders from the team, not the other way around.
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Rhothaerill
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Vincent Returns!!!
Feb 2003
time: 21:31
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quote:
In favour of giving CFC one of the choke points:
If they attack, they will concentrate all their offence in one area and go for broke, I would imagine. We will have 2 choke points and various lake-side coastal cities that we would want to defend. No amount of planning would prevent them from taking either Equilibrium or Balance of Power. Claiming that having both assures us of safety is, I fear, a false claim. We would not be assured of safety in any event.
However, by cooperating with them and demonstrating that we will treat them fairly (in their eyes) we put off the possibility of them ever wanting to attack us.
Furthermore, we gain a tech ally in a 3.5 way game. The chances of CGN and GWT ever trusting each other enough to fully cooperate are slim. That we could not twist the situation of us with our junior partner gaining a significant advantage over the other two are great. The value of CFC increases if one of the other two cripples or eliminates the other. In that case it would be us and CFC vs 1 of them. In that event it would not be even close to a contest. Two civs researching will always beat one.
All that be as it may, it is not assured that we can maneuver CFC the way we would idealy like. I would say we have a good chance, but it is not assured. The benefits of CFC as a tech vassal/ally are obvious. The question is, can we make it stick?
In either case, we are going to need an extensive army. Reduced cost of troops is a red herring whether we have both choke points or not. One fortress does not the fate of an empire assure. It is only by the strength and quantity of steel in the field that we are assured of safety. |
Well said NYE, and I agree completely.  Your third paragraph was one of my main points. By letting CFC have a chokepoint city (preferable Equilibrium since it's not a good city for us and we have good defensive points next to it) we are letting them know that we do take them and this alliance seriously. Right now they fear us (I believe) because we are rolling through GCA's lands like butter (well, to a point  ) and they aren't sure what we'd do next. Someone who is afraid of you isn't going to be as receptive to your requests as someone who you treat as an equal. Telling them we'll let that have Equilibrium once GCA is finished is a good way of assuaging their fear of us and telling them we want them as an ally.
Your point about the extensive army is a good one. Just because we are proposing to be CFC's allies that does not mean we are going to roll over and stop our military production completely.
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:31
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I believe that CFC can be extremely useful to us in the future ... more useful to us as an ally than as a barren wasteland where we eventually build a few corrupt cities. We're not big enough to occupy this entire continent, and our build pattern is so tight that it's really foolish of us to imagine using all of the land.
By keeping around CFC we gain:
a techtrade partner who can keep us ahead of either CGN or GWT.
a buffer zone from GWT, should they decide to invade our continent. They'd hit CFC first.
a second economy with palace + FP to support its own military that could back us up in our next war.
a source of instant intelligence that can use embassy/spying against our enemy (they stay at peace).
a second source of intelligence from diplomacy and separate chats & diplomacy with GWT & CGN.
a source to funnel techs to "the other side" should we end up choosing sides in a GWT/CGN war.
a "market" for our techs, luxes, etc that can give us gold.
a potential "lender" should we need to suddenly borrow funds for an emergency.
a resource safety net, should we both get harbors ... in case we ever get resources cut during a war.
... I could go on.
The benefits of having a trusting ally FAR outweigh the paranoia or pride we feel. I do not believe that CFC is a great danger to Apolyton. I do believe that we are a great danger to CFC, and it's very likely that they believe that as well.
If they fear us, they will never trust us, and we, therefore, cannot trust them. We need them not to fear us. Giving them one of the 2 chokepoints is extremely fair, and I also support E_T's suggestion that we give them Equilibrium.
--Togas
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
However, by cooperating with them and demonstrating that we will treat them fairly (in their eyes) we put off the possibility of them ever wanting to attack us.
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CFC's only game right now is a successful campaign against us (sooner or later). No matter how much and how long we may want them as a friendly neighbor, the plain truth is that CFC is probably already plotting our demise. This plotting probably involves being friends with us for the moment.
Let's accept this fact.
Then, it makes far more sense to have CFC little angry now while they're weak, than grant them a major strategic advantage later on when they've had time to build up. Either way, the're going to attack us.
I would also just like to point out that eventually our economy will be far superior to theirs. However, we will not dwarf them for quite some time. With their currentl recources, they could easily build (or upgrade to) a Rider force that would give us some serious troubles, especially if we're concentrating on growth and not another war. So let's not just assume that CFC is a non-threat just yet.
Dominae
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
Has CFC played the most optimal and sound game regarding grand strategic decisions? Gee, I don't think so... |
That's seems to be the standard answer to everything related to the FAM. Unfortunately, it's not the answer to anything.
If your argument is "CFC is unpredictable" (like it was with CDG), then any plan you have for them and any diplomatic move you make will be based on shaky assumptions just like mine. Who are you to say that giving them either BoP or Elicidum will calm them down and make them think we're friendly? For all we know they'll laugh at us and plan their next move.
I'm still not sure why the FAM is so reticent to point out the obvious to CFC: 1) we're strong, 2) they're not, 3) we plan to take the chokepoints as insurance against their aggression, and 4) we have no interest (i.e. not much to gain) in eliminating them from the game.
If the worry is that CFC is a little diplomatically and strategically naive, why not just tell them the way it is? I believe this would be much better than playing "damage control" with their flimsy demands and expectations.
Dominae
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:31
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There is always the risk, Dominae, of convincing them that attacking us is their only option by being, um, overbearing.
You're right that they might very well be plotting our destruction as we speak. But it is also quite possible that they are hoping they don't have to fight us. If we show them that we're willing to accomodate them (without hampering ourselves much), we may be able to convince them that cooperation is better than trying to take us out.
Something tells me, just looking at the map, that CFC must realize they have almost no shot at winning. But they may be ok with that. Can Vox or RP win the PTW Demogame? Almost assuredly not (for all I know, Beta has come up with a master plan that will be the doom of us all  ). They're still playing, though, aren't they?
-Arrian
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wervdon
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There's only two ways to keep CFC (or any civ) from attacking us:
1) Eliminate them.
Advantage: We get the entire continent.
Disadvantage: We'll probally lose the game to the other continent anyways. If we go this route our best bet at winning the game is to hope the other continent stays very evenly divided and both other teams our as (if not more) willing to trade with us than with each other.
2) Make them realize that war with us is hopeless. I don't mean make deals with them, etc. I mean have an extremely obvious military advantage that is so overwhelming that they just won't want to attack us because it would be obvious suicide. At the same time, we should be friends with them and trading with them and plotting for the end game.
Disadvantage: Its more risky, if we lose the obvious military advantage they just might strike.
Disadvantage: It relies on them having some degree of common sense.
Disadvantage: They may get desperate and see throwing the dice in a hopeless assault against us as their only chance to win.
Disadvantage: We'll have to maintain a very strong army. (I would anyways though)
Advantage: It will help us tremendously vs the other continent.
Advantage: It's probally our best shot at winning the game as a whole.
Its clearly safer to eliminate CFC if our goal is just not be eliminated ourselves. If we want to actually win the game though (and I do), then my gut says take a risk and ally with CFC against the other continent.
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:31
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@ Dom and F-P
If you two honestly believe that going up and telling CFC the facts of life "as it is", i.e., that they're just our shadow, that they are practically our vassals, that we deserve both chokepoints because frankly we are stronger than them etc etc etc, go ahead, tell them, see where it leads us. I am surprised that an entire game of diplomatic policy based on fooling everyone about our real intentions towards them suddenly must do a 180 degree turn, lose all form of diplomatic tact, and do nothing as to simply piss them off which has the added benefit of making them actually begin to conspire against us because of the way we're treating them.
The only reason you want to use this kind of talk is because we are in a position to do so. You like everyone else on this team would DETEST it if another came down and talked to us in that manner.
I don't see why we're doing all this BS debating about CFC when it isn't even an official decided-upon Apolyton policy to take them out in the near future. Instead of arguing on BoP over things which are mere hypothesis (you have any proof that they ARE going to attack us or that they even have a shot at winning?) you should start a policy debate on whether CFC will be taken out or not.
As it stands, it is official Apolyton policy that CFC is NOT a target immediately after the GCA war. If you want this to change go ahead and start debating it now, if the points are valid then it will be done.
@ BF
As per GWT and CGN, I see some of you have forgotten to see the world map and that even with GCA's territory were are just barely equal in size to the other two giants. IF they see Apolyton as a major threat they may very well decide to stop fighting for a while and plot to take US out if only to beat themselves to death after we cease to be a threat.
As long as CFC is in the game they fact our score betrays our true power will be a bulwark at us appearing as a threat. The most important thing to get the other continent to keep killing at each other is precisely to not look like a threat, to look like a 2nd rate power. Maintaining the current situation in the other continent IS NOT a given. It will NOT happen automatically just because we WANT it to happen. If we want it to happen we must make it happen and frankly without being able to influence events there in a direct manner (i.e. with units) the only way is to make them want to get at each other more than they want to get against us.
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:31
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I am of two minds on this issue:
1) that taking out CFC would win us this whole contenent, but at the same time, leave us open to having the other 2 civs conspire to trade tech only with themselves and not us. In several respects, that isn't too bad, because we can benifit from having reduced research costs for the same techs. This allows us to come from behind and then outpace them. But this would leave then in a position to keep us from going against them offensively (on land), because they would have Railroads built by then.
2) having CFC as a partner, with all of the uncertanties allows us options and Opertunities that wouldn't be available under the other path. It also leaves us with Risks that we wouldn't have with the other path.
For one thing, We can look at being partners with CFC for a while, as we consolidate our new lands. After we are secure, then we can examine the other options. But no matter what, we will require time to get things properly set up and having a partner is one way of doing it.
If we partner, we can delay our GA until we have more things set up to take advantage of it. We can also have CFC delay their and both trigger each other's GA at a time of our choosing. We can aslo have Phony Wars to try to generate GL's, or if anything, get Elite Units ready for the evenual assult on the other contenent.
Giving them Equil allows us to atleast plan for a future that we will have some control over. Taking them out gives us more of that control, but also takes away several possibilities that we would have had with them.
But after all of that, I would rather take the risks and keep them around, happy and mullified.
E_T
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28-10-2003 10:23
)
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