29-10-2003 07:19									#61
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It's OK, F-P. The tone of some of the debate has taken on an edge (not yours, as usual you are being a gentleman). MZ is getting a little abrupt, yes, but I think he is feeling like the target right at the moment so I can cut him some slack.

Be assured that the voicing of opinions counter to the accepted status quo is anything but pointless. In fact, it is required if we are to stay healthy as a group.

Now however, he is correct that most of those at the top have been pursuing a policy of engaging CFC as friends. I believe MZ is quite correct that 'tell them what it is' would be very damaging to what we have been doing to this point. Hense, he is really trying to prevent a decision that he views to be counter to current policies and future prospects for Apolyton. That is good, since riding herd over foreign relations is currently his job.

	29-10-2003 07:20									#62
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PS. Leader farming? Over my dead body.

	29-10-2003 07:24									#63
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quote: Originally posted by E_T If we partner, we can delay our GA until we have more things set up to take advantage of it. We can also have CFC delay their and both trigger each other's GA at a time of our choosing.E_T

GCA will lose a unit eventually.
We will have our GA soon.

Meanwhile...CFC will get to choose when to have their GA.
Either in an offensive against us with riders (While we lick our wounds after GCA)
Or they will save it until they have all their cities established, and ask their friendly partners Poly to sacrifice a unit and help them start it.

Neither option pleases me. We let them tag along for now, because we need then as a distraction force against GCA. But very soon after, we need to smack them down.

	29-10-2003 07:29									#64
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I would never support us engaging in cooperative GA-generation, promotion or leader farming.

	29-10-2003 07:35									#65
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btw, this discussion is leading me to believe that we should leave the choke points as a 'to be decided item' with CFC.

I would hope that we can grab BoP before CFC does. If so, then we are in the driver's seat and have a much better bargaining position. Chances that we could keep both would be very good.

If CFC beats us to it, then I believe we should consider trading BoP for Equilibrium. Actually, not Equilibrium itself, but the site 4 from it. A city there with 0 culture would not be a threat to a mountain fortress at Equilibrium 6. If that mountain remained the only road through, we would be safer there than in Equilibrium itself. Mercs would have a 9.75 defence and be able to heal.

In the mean time, we should not build any cultural improvements in Equilibrium. If CFC needs it to move boats out of the lake, we can exchange it at a convenient time for production purposes. They get it when our build is done, we get it back immediately. Or something of that sort. Of course we would not allow boats to move into the lake, only out.

As far as I can see, this issue need not be as divisive as it is heading for. An ancient curse has it that there is always more than one way to skin a cat. I hate that saying, but sometimes it is true.

	29-10-2003 07:41									#66
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Actually, now that I look at it closely, if defending vs CFC is a consideration, which I believe it should be, then we should move Equilibrium ourselves to the tile 4 of its current location.

That would give us a double line of the city with walls, and then a fortress on the mountains behind it.

The advantage being that if the city falls, the fortress does not fall into their cultural territory to stop a fast counter attack, or the healing of defenders in the fortress.

	29-10-2003 07:52									#67
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A city at Equilibrium 4 could be bypassed on land. This would negate the benfits of having it as a true land chokepoint which could not be bypassed.

	29-10-2003 08:03									#68
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The choke then would be the mountains and a single road through them.

If we have military superiority, then it would be suicide to bypass the city. If we do not have military superiority, then how are we going to hold 2 choke points vs a stronger foe?

	29-10-2003 08:09									#69
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We can build a fortress on the mountain anyways. If we feel we cannot hold Equilibrium where it stands now we simply abandon it and the fortress is still there.

What would be the point of having a new chokepoint city at Equilibrium 4 besides preventing the fortress from vanishing should CFC capture the city?

	29-10-2003 08:12									#70
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The fortress would not vanish. However, if they capture Equilibrium where it sits, then it is 3MP to move into the fortress and units in the fortress cannot heal.

We are going way off topic though, so maybe this could be done in chat.

	29-10-2003 08:18									#71
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The fortress would not vanish. However, if they capture Equilibrium where it sits, then it is 3MP to move into the fortress and units in the fortress cannot heal. We are going way off topic though, so maybe this could be done in chat.

Like I said, if we ever feel we cannot hold the city we abandon it. Is there a problem with that?

	29-10-2003 08:47									#72
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I fully 100% agree with those who are against leader farming and fake wars. If we can't win the game honestly, then we shouldn't win it.

Just to clarify though: I am ok with agreeing to "saber rattle" with CFC (or GWT/CGN for that matter) to give the illusion that we aren't as close as we really are, just so long as it remains smoke and mirrors and not actual military exchanges.

	29-10-2003 09:18									#73
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I will not help CFC set off their GA by letting them attack us. I will not Leader Farm with anyone.

MZ: Our lands, with GCA's land included, is about equal to what GWT and CGN has. Now, how would us having that land to ourselves make us seem like more of a threat to either GWT or CGN that the other team on the Continent with them already is? Let me let you in on something I've repeated here: GWT and CGN will never be friendly, they will not share techs, they will not ally, never.

Read the below and tell me if you think CGN will ever befriend GWT....

Chat excerpt:

quote: [15:38] miccofl> sorry, I know this has to suck for you guys but we are not going to let them get away with this BS [15:38] miccofl> Well given the intial actions taken by them (removing the inital exploit) they are not all that promising [15:39] Trip> it would be nice to see the front but mongoose is never around to ask [15:39] Trip> assuming you haven't asked him about that yet [15:39] miccofl> a cease fire is still holding, but who knows how long that might last [15:39] Trip> do they continue to attack your units? [15:40] miccofl> realisticly, how do you negotiate peace with a team that has tried to cheat on you? [15:40] Trip> yes [15:41] Trip> I was thinking about that earlier [15:41] Trip> this probably doesn't help their credibility any, especially with what's going on... [15:41] Trip> and no doubt they're preparing a REAL invasion anyways [15:42] Trip> massive buildup... they passed us quite quickly [15:42] Trip> and with obsolete units [15:42] miccofl> my tie-breaker vote is going to get a real workout, although if the war persists martial law will be reinstated [15:43] Trip> well, the fact that they've built up so quickly is quite distressing [15:43] miccofl> basicly all that does is give us the authority to override a poll from within the turn chat [15:43] Trip> there is a large discrepancy between their army and your own [15:43] Trip> with iron disconnected [15:43] Trip> they must be amassing an immense army [15:44] miccofl> they had best be amassing a large ammount of cash if they intend to upgrade [15:44] Trip> yes [15:44] Trip> they were running high on tax last time we checked [15:44] miccofl> and if so, there is little funds left for research [15:44] miccofl> they need mono and chiv .......... .......... [16:09] miccofl> Firaxis didn't protect their REX [16:09] Trip> hehe [16:09] Trip> that's what it looked like [16:10] Trip> score goes up big... then woops [16:10] Trip> I'm surprised GWT had such success in such rough ground [16:11] miccofl> I'm not touching that [16:11] miccofl> Soren worded his messages in a way that led me to believe he thought they were cheating in some way [16:12] Trip> hmmmm [16:12] Trip> that's less than nice to hear [16:13] miccofl> He never came out and said it, but it was implied in many messages [16:13] miccofl> Up until recently I just blew it off as sour grapes but... [16:14] miccofl> suffice it to say we will be scrutinizing every visible move on their part ............ ............ [17:24] Trip> I've heard something about Archers on a hill or something [17:25] miccofl> The archers (2) and the pikemen (2) were in different theaters of operation [17:25] miccofl> they were both moved and fortified on the 1st turn - our objection [17:26] miccofl> on the second only the archers had been moved back [17:28] Trip> I see [17:28] Trip> what about the third :P [17:28] miccofl> or if you prefer http://www.civgaming.net/forums/sho...=&threadid=3984 [17:29] Trip> convenient [17:29] Trip> do we know if that actual gives the fortified bonus or not though? [17:29] miccofl> quite [17:30] miccofl> animation usually only comes into play if the attribute is active [17:31] Trip> why are the Pikes in different spots? [17:31] miccofl> that is our point [17:31] miccofl> they should be where they are in the first pic, but unfortified [17:32] Trip> odd [17:32] Trip> maybe you should just be a bit more direct with you have Mongoose tell them :P [17:32] miccofl> yeah, what else did they change [17:33] miccofl> it would not be a good idea for me to get direct with them at this point [17:34] miccofl> we find it odd that while we are capable of replaying our turn, exactly, for any turn by using our chat log; another can not [17:34] Trip> I could probably replay a turn exactly just from memory [17:34] miccofl> yes, there are those memorable turns [17:36] miccofl> so why can't they? [17:38] Trip> because they have a variety of issues [17:38] Trip> such as, taking 2 weeks to respond to correspondance [17:41] miccofl> issues, an ineresting choice of word [17:41] miccofl> interesting [17:41] miccofl> they are capable of responding in a day or less [17:42] Trip> when they want to [17:42] miccofl> exactly [17:42] miccofl> they have no morals, ethics or honor [17:42] miccofl> only their own agenda

	29-10-2003 10:16									#74
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Remember this?

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=81056


After this there was no-one who wanted to cooperate with CDG at all. Yet we did. Further, they actually approached us with their cities and gold in retaliation against GCA. I just want to point out that opinions and situations at one point in time don't necessarily need to have any effect on what happens in a few weeks or months, which is what timescale our game is played on.

CFC considers us their friend right now. Will that be the case for the whole game based on the fact we have not had any major fallings-out? No. GCA and we got on famously until the war, which, from their POV, may have come as a complete surprise and unprovoked. Yet it happened and they are doing whatever they can to deny us everything.

CGN and GWT are the last two powers (and BIG ones!) on their continent, so it is natural they have their feuds. But there is little reason that, given a day or three for cooler heads to emerge and some good communication to happen, they could not team up against our continent - diverting their competition.

Things change fast - they have before and will again. We cannot assume anything about CGN, GWT or CFC. I think GWT and CGN WILL end their disputes, lest WE get too far ahead of them. And if they didn', then we have to choose a side or deprive ourselves of the trading benefits of both. And if we chose a side we will be asked to defend it.

Remember each team in this game is there for themselves first - past relationships and honour don't mean all that much - we broke a NAP with GCA. For good reasons, but break it we did. US, Apolyton! We believe we are the most trustworthy team of all (of course we do), yet if GWT and CGN consider full-blown war, they know how strong each other is and how we would be surging forward every turn they devote to military units, especially since we're sitting pretty largely out of harm's way until Navigation.

They may be stupid at times, but no-one who has survived thus far is stupid all the time, and we just have to play even smarter.

	29-10-2003 10:26									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon This is the sort of activity I sincerely hope we avoid. Phony Wars to trigger Golden Ages and Great Leaders? How far from the days of simply debating the ethics of fortified boats we have come.

I agree, those things are just too insane to even be worth considering

quote: Again - if we need to stoop to this kind of cheese, I'm not sure I want to be here. But then again, given the extreme hostility MZ is giving people who oppose his views in this thread, I'm not sure I want to be here anyhow. Seems like having an opposing view to the power structure around here is a pretty pointless - and target rich - place to be.

I am only debating what I think is wrong. This is not to say my viewpoint will be the one taken, if it were, then why on earth would I still be arguing over this?

My point was simply that our position regarding CFC in the long run has not yet been decided upon and that it is currently folly to begin to antagonize a team which might end up being a long term ally. IF we had decided upon plans on taking out CFC in the short or medium term we really wouldn't care about this right now since they'd be next on the menu. However, as it stands that is not the case.

I will repeat what I said in my previous post, which was not meant as a hostile remark but as a sincere invitation to debate: if you people want to discuss the eventual status of CFC (dead or alive), then start it, it's never too early to begin a debate of this magnitude.

	29-10-2003 10:34									#76
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Let me let you in on something I've repeated here: GWT and CGN will never be friendly, they will not share techs, they will not ally, never.

The next time CGN and GWT share a single tech I will not hesitate in quoting this

I don't understand why you are so rigid in your opinions practically assuring that certain things are not going to happen just because you say so. Civ is a very complex game, interests change, threats in one place are quickly overruled by threats in other places. We would be very unwise to not take all alternatives into consideration in deciding on an optimal foreign policy. If we stick to just one alternative because it seems the most "logical" and "obvious" we run the risk of looking like fools when that doesn't end up happening, and I can cite the NAP rep hit and the galley intrusion as two examples of that happening.

	29-10-2003 10:51									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I don't understand why you are so rigid in your opinions practically assuring that certain things are not going to happen just because you say so. Civ is a very complex game, interests change, threats in one place are quickly overruled by threats in other places.

I can say the exact same thing about your wanting to keep CFC around. Who says CFC will share anything with us? Who says CFC really wants us as allies? We may get Mono from GWT, then CFC gets Chiv and withholds it, then uses it's Rider's to launch a desperate invasion of APO because CFC knows that it can't win without taking this huge risk now. CFC will either become our vassals or they will attack us. Soon after they get Rider's and while we lack Knights would be the best time for them to do this.

Then, what good did it do to foster any sort of good faith in CFC? What good did it do to keep them around?

Our reasons for attacking them can be explained by the above reasoning. A team that has no chance to win will go for broke and be very dangerous to us. You can quote me on that too.

	29-10-2003 11:17									#78
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Anyone who assures us that CFC will attack is selling a bridge. Likewise, anyone who assures they will not attack us.

The art is in walking the tight rope of possibilities and getting what we want out of the situation. Guard against the eventualities, but push for the desired result.

	29-10-2003 11:37									#79
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nye, CFC must attack us in order to win. They will not have enough/decent land to compete with either CGN or GWT if they do not. The only question is as to when.

	29-10-2003 11:43									#80
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Would you attack a power that was stronger than you?

If they did, and if we are prepared, it would be a slaughter.

	29-10-2003 11:44									#81
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btw, in some MP games, lesser powers do indeed resign themselves to being kingmakers. In fact, there are entire games designed on the concept.

There is no guarantee whatsoever that just because we share a land mass with CFC that they will attack us.

	29-10-2003 11:52									#82
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I would attack if I was backed into a corner. I would have nothing to lose by doing so. CFC is there now; if they dont realize this, they are not only incompetent, they are stupid.

We would win, yes, but a slaughter? I'm not sure about that. They could cause us much damage with those 3 move Riders. Plus, then we would have to attack them in the home digs after they have had a chance to rebuild their forces.

	29-10-2003 11:54									#83
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You would attack. Others might not. That is what diplomacy is for, to convince those others that there are better targets.

	29-10-2003 11:55									#84
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btw, we can kill them prior to rr's, or after that. Neither CGN nor GWT could if we helped CFC.

Would you start the war just to end the game for yourself?

	29-10-2003 11:58									#85
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and then there is the site pride issue to be considered. You are CFC. You have a choice of being beaten by CGN and GWT, or by Poly. Which do you chose? Do you bow out to a minor blip of a site, or do you accept second to the only other 'big' site?

Which would hurt your site pride more? Being beat by miccofl? Or Dominae?

In short, there are zero assured outcomes. The FAM has done a very good job at making those uncertain outcomes come out for us up til now. I think they deserve the chance to continue what has worked up til now.

	29-10-2003 12:27									#86
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I agree that the FAM has done a fine job. I alos agree that all occurances are still to be determined; that is all possibilities still exist. My thoughts are simply that we would be better off without CFC than with given the possibilites that could arise. If the FAM could guarantee us that CFC would be very happy taking a second place to Apolyton, then I would be very happy to hear that, but on the other hand, how would it look to other teams if CFC now decided to help us win the game and for them to not try at all...That would be 2 against 1 and 1.

	29-10-2003 12:37									#87
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Back to the BoP issue. A quick question:

CFC wants to have BoP to move out ships from the lake. But can't they already do so? The coast tiles W of BoP are N-S of each other...

If yes, and GCA abandons BoP, we might want to leave the chokepoint neutral to allow both civs to sail through it.

	29-10-2003 12:37									#88
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I strongly disagree that we are better off without CFC than with. It is highly possible that CGN could leave us behind in research by themselves, and that GWT will not be interested in trade either.

In that case, it would be the 1-2 of us and CFC that could get us ahead in science.

Some see CFC as useless to us. I don't. That may be the difference between us.

	29-10-2003 12:38									#89
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Back to the BoP issue. A quick question: CFC wants to have BoP to move out ships from the lake. But can't they already do so? The coast tiles W of BoP are N-S of each other... If yes, and GCA abandons BoP, we might want to leave the chokepoint neutral to allow both civs to sail through it.

The lake is land locked. A canal city is required to get in and out from either end.

	29-10-2003 13:10									#90
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More good arguments from all sides - but I am still with those that say 'be nice with CFC now'. I will be mostly restating what others said, but here is my PoV:

Our chances to take CFC out before they get Riders is zero. Period. Their UU will come into the play, no matter what. The whole discussion here was meant to be about whether we gift them one of the chokepoints or tell them to stuff it.

If we tell them to stuff it, there is a big chance they will get offended or disappointed and even if they were not doing so up to now, they might very well start planning an attack on us - quite likely deciding to take a shot at us as soon as they get their UU (after us finishing off or having just finished off GCA, not yet recovering from the war). If you ask me - THAT is the worst case scenario I can imagine. Any other time, we'd be better prepared - but after winning a war of attrition with GCA, we would have a tough time to win a war over CFC quickly. Instead of settling and improving new lands, we would have to fight on. Yes, we would probably win in the long run, but the costs might be crippling, IMHO.

OTOH, if we are nice and give them Equilibrium (or even better, Equilibrium 4), what do we lose? Economically, Equilibrium is useless. And strategically? I have to agree with those that point out the mountains E of it are even easier to defend because of better defensive bonuses (with forts). With 3-move riders, Equilibrium could be struck by surprise at ANY time anyway - little hope of getting culture enough there to prevent that. I can thus see no big strategic advantage in keeping Equilibrium, other than perhaps building barracks there to allow our defending units to heal in 1 turn there. But considering that CFC would undoubtedly strike with a force strong enough to take the city on the first turn of the invasion, we would actually be giving them barracks for free. So, a vague "we could sail our ships through that inland lake" is all I can think of. Hmmm... that would be cool...

So - correct me if I am wrong, but keeping Equilibrium does not guarantee us any major economic or strategic advantage, right? If CFC intends to attack us, giving up Equilibrium is not really going to make it easier for them. If they are not planning or are not decided yet, such a move is unlikely to MAKE them plan for an attack, right? Just the contrary - it may give them the feeling of being well treated and not threatened by us... making them postpone plans (if any) of rider attacks for later, building up first. Maybe not, but all we lose is one crappy city in a remote location.

IMHO, trading Equilibrium (4) for the possibility of keeping CFC at bay or for improving the odds they will let us be for as long as possible is a great bargain (I do agree that ALL speculations about their current/future motives/plans are just that... speculations. That's why I speak about improving odds only). If they do not attack within 30-50 turns, then they will have lost all their chances. Not so, if they attack sooner - they might bite us, perhaps even painfully.