27-10-2003 22:35									#1
	Who gets to keep BoP? Remove this text

This is the official discussion thread for settling the BoP issue. For those who don't know during last night's chat with CFC we agreed to split lands with us keeping everything east and CFC keeping everything west of BoP. However, the status of BoP is the as yet undecided issue (and no, you can't have "free cities" in Civ like Danzig )

CFC's main argument, which is quite valid, is that they need it as an outlet for ships built inside the lake. We already have Equilibrium which means that we don't have this excuse. They also cited security concerns, which is of course, our main reason to hold on to the city also.

We kind of discussed some things in our chat about possible middle grounds. One was alternating ownership which I don't think is practical since the other teams will see the city changing hands and begin to suspect. Another was some sort of demilitarized zone idea. The last, and I think most practical is to have the city and allow the other team to build a fortress directly on the opposite bank. Finally the other idea was to have a "the team who gets there first keeps it".

Regardless, if we decide CFC will have it, it must be on the other side of the lake as currently the city is on "our side". It is quite possible GCA will raze it before we take it.

I have made a poll to gauge feelings on the issue. However the ultimate decision should be based on the discussion more than on the vote. Please don't just say "keep it" or "let 'em have it", disuss the pros and cons because we can't just go back to them and say "well, sorry, our team decided to keep it"..."why?"... "just because".

	27-10-2003 22:42									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Their concerns are valid. I'd be inclined to let them have it.

quote: Regardless, if we decide CFC will have it, it must be on the other side of the lake as currently the city is on "our side".

-Arrian

	27-10-2003 22:57									#3
	Support Apolyton

I agree with Arrian. Clearly we have security concerns with keeping BoP, but let's face facts - CFC will not rival us militarily or economically for the rest of the game. Their keeping BoP is not going to particularly improve their Civilization, and if we ever decided to attack them, it's not going to hold us up.

For the small cost of giving them BoP (or the ability to build a city near there), we may gain their trust, which will be invaluable.

	27-10-2003 23:09									#4
	Tired of ads?

I agree with letting CFC control the southern isthmus.

A southern access port really doesn't do much good. We don't have any cities on the sea currently, so any galley building cities would take some time to get up and running. It doesn't increase our vulnerability much, either by sea or land, they can build galleys on the sea otherwise to attack us and we are in equal positions for the land bridge defense.

It would be nice to get CFC to attack a bit from the west but perhaps until we capture (or its razed/abandoned) catchopolis, they would be better of just spying.
OTOH, ..maybe its best if CFC doesn't raise a military, don't want them to have too much to upgrade to riders if they get antsy.



do we also need to determine how far the culture radius extends across the border-one square or two?

	27-10-2003 23:39									#5
	Suffering from ads?

Like the others I agree with giving BoP to CFC as long as they settle it on "their" side of the island. I like the idea of a fortress on our side of the isthmus to be "safe" in case they ultimately try treachery. But I don't think we truly need the city itself and letting them have it is a definite sign to them that we are serious about an alliance with them.

I know BigFree has stated he wants to clear CFC from the continent, but I honestly don't see that as a good option. If we did take out CFC our cities on that side would be highly corrupt and basically useless. We will have two cores in our current lands and what GCA currently holds, but nothing in CFC land would justify taking it. Instead we can have an alliance and be tech trading partners to the betterment of both our nations. Essentially three productive cores to a common goal...at least until we're far enough ahead of the other continent.

Keep in mind also that just because we'd be in an alliance doesn't mean that we shouldn't heavily garrison our borders just in case.

	28-10-2003 00:04									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Apolyton will be the great victor of the war! Of course it should fall in the hands of the mighty empire.

CFC's war effort is not even worth mentioning in the history books, they should bow for us and accept our decisions!

	28-10-2003 00:15									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Because of the Proximity of BoP to the new Palace Core, I wouldn't want it to be in but our own hands.

But what about this, we give them Equilibrium in exchange for it. For 1, we can build our fortess on the mountains, giving us a higher defensive rateing.

E_T

	28-10-2003 00:22									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by E_T Because of the Proximity of BoP to the new Palace Core, I wouldn't want it to be in but our own hands. But what about this, we give them Equilibrium in exchange for it. For 1, we can build our fortess on the mountains, giving us a higher defensive rateing. E_T

I give my full support to this proposition.

	28-10-2003 00:34									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by E_T But what about this, we give them Equilibrium in exchange for it. For 1, we can build our fortess on the mountains, giving us a higher defensive rateing. E_T

A good idea. Much more defensible from our POV. We leave forests adjacent to BoP and that would kill any rider advantage. If BoP was in cfc hands, riders could travel through grassland.

Plus it avoids moving BoP (possibly moot point)

Though it would mean that galleys to attack the other continent would have to come nearly exclusively from the outer coastal cities, that's probably ok.

	28-10-2003 00:59									#10
	Re: Who gets to keep BoP? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Balance of Power should be ours. Anything less is unacceptable. We're clearly pulling more than our own weight in the campaign to eradicate GCA. Why is CFC making demands?

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen CFC's main argument, which is quite valid, is that they need it as an outlet for ships built inside the lake.

This is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. Last I checked, CFC can build ships aplenty with their western coast. How many ships do they plan on putting in the water?

The main reason they want access to that lake is for strategic reasons (against us). They also want BoP for strategic reasons (against us).

They're pulling a fast one on us and we're letting them.


Dominae

	28-10-2003 01:01									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by E_T But what about this, we give them Equilibrium in exchange for it. For 1, we can build our fortess on the mountains, giving us a higher defensive rateing.

Giving them Equilibrium means we give them full control of Silks on our continent, correct?


Dominae

	28-10-2003 01:08									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

There are silks in the south, the colony is there until we have control of them.

Also, if they do have that city, as long as we are at peace, the trade route will still come to us, because it's our colony.

E_T

	28-10-2003 01:19									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

IMHO, I'm inclined to make it "first come, first serve". Tell CFC that if they get there first, it's theirs. Otherwise, it's ours.

(Actually, the suggestion of giving them Equilibrium if they give up BoP could make sense. Except that'd mean CFC would be giving up a productive city near their core for a crap jungle/mountain city, which I don't think they'd like as much...)

	28-10-2003 01:53									#14
	Suffering from ads?

If I were CFC i'd take Equilibrium without even asking.

That is actually a very good idea. I support it

	28-10-2003 01:56									#15
	Re: Re: Who gets to keep BoP? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Balance of Power should be ours. Anything less is unacceptable. We're clearly pulling more than our own weight in the campaign to eradicate GCA. Why is CFC making demands?

Maybe because they bore the brunt of GCA's military for most of the war?

quote: This is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. Last I checked, CFC can build ships aplenty with their western coast. How many ships do they plan on putting in the water? The main reason they want access to that lake is for strategic reasons (against us). They also want BoP for strategic reasons (against us).

And apparently we want it for the same reasons... against them.

quote: They're pulling a fast one on us and we're letting them. Dominae

They fear us ten times more than we fear them. This is North Korea syndrome. The small weak power wants to feel safe from it's mighty neighbor, not because they plan to attack us but because they fear we WILL. I find it hard to believe that people don't see this.

	28-10-2003 01:57									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

E_T's suggestion is a good one. I like that even more than letting CFC have BoP.

Re: Dominae's point...sometimes you have to give a little to get a lot. Like I said above, having CFC in our court (somewhat like a vassal) is more desirable than us going it alone. What if, just for example, we annihilate CFC and GWT annihilates CGN? They have the far more productive continent and would be able to outresearch and outproduce us if they're smart about it.

We know that eventually we will have to pull away from CFC, but in the meantime an alliance will be mutually beneficial. It helps us with tech research and having a "partner against the other continent" and for CFC it allows them to stay in the game.

	28-10-2003 04:19									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Why should we give CFC any of these important strategic cities? It just seems plain dumb.

CFC can be just a helpful vassal without them having one of these cities.

	28-10-2003 04:23									#18
	Re: Re: Who gets to keep BoP? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Balance of Power should be ours. Anything less is unacceptable. We're clearly pulling more than our own weight in the campaign to eradicate GCA. Why is CFC making demands? This is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. Last I checked, CFC can build ships aplenty with their western coast. How many ships do they plan on putting in the water? The main reason they want access to that lake is for strategic reasons (against us). They also want BoP for strategic reasons (against us). They're pulling a fast one on us and we're letting them. Dominae

I fully support Dom's argument. At the same time, I see that we lose nothing and actually gain an advatage by giving them EQ. Very good idea ET.

	28-10-2003 04:32									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Perhaps with this new idea of E_Ts we should declare this poll invalid and begin a new poll with E_Ts idea incorporated. I support E_Ts new plan as it gives CFC what they want, an exit from the lake and an assurance that we're serious about an alliance, and it gives us what we want in having that alliance without giving up a potentially powerful city.

	28-10-2003 04:51									#20
	Put an end to popups!

I'm against giving up the ability to secure both chokepoints. Maybe they don't trust us, but I don't trust them either yet.

I'm fine with them having a chokepoint/canal city of their own, but I want us to control positions on both of the chokepoints too. Being able to narrow our defenses down to two tiles will make it hard for them to do any damage with Riders should they want to.

	28-10-2003 05:01									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Hagbart CFC can be just a helpful vassal without them having one of these cities.

Tell them that next time we chat

The idea here is to not make CFC think they're a vassal but an "equal" partner here. They would not tolerate vassaldom any more than we would.

	28-10-2003 05:55									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I have been travelling and hence not following the most recent events. Anyway, this are some of my thoughts :

1. the excuse of building ships in inner lake is nonsense. I agree totally with Dominae.

2. to give up BoP is negotiable, but CFC has to give us something in return. The only thing valuable i can think about is all the silks (i hope i remember correctly) near Equilibrium. We have a colony there, but we have never drawn a proper border arrangement with CFC on the silks

3. giving up Equilibrium means we lose all the silk once CFC built cities over them, or their culture border expands in the future. I don't think we should give that up.

4. there are islands near to CFC, if we don't intend to occupy them, let's gift it to CFC as part of a border agreement.

this is all i can think of now.

	28-10-2003 05:57									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I would support the "First one there" argument, frankly. If that fails or we aren't sure we can win such a race, then I'd go with the ET Proposal.

I don't consider CFC bearing the brunt of GCA at the beginning of the war to be a valid excuse - A) we would have done it better, B) we weren't in the war then and therefore it wasn't our concern and problem and C) we are the major power now because of our better development plans since day 1 - negotiation is for equal parties. CFC is *NOT* our equal.

The "build in the lake" excuse is rubbish. If they want security against us, they can have the fortress. Heck, why don't we offer to build the fortress for them, and road back to their lands too? *WE* have the industrial capacity to spare workers for that, unlike them.

Do not excuse their early game mistakes and give them things to make up for it now. CFC is still an enemy, and do not doubt they still make plans to defeat us someday, even if they cannot do it now.

	28-10-2003 06:05									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

i just check the maps on the other thread ...... there are silk south of Dun na Anarchy. I support giving CFC Eqilibrium. But we should built a small force and a couple of cities (with walls & barracks) to slow donw CFC if they decide to attack us from Equlibrium.

	28-10-2003 06:08									#25
	Got spare money?

Hmm. I don't really support E_T's plan, despite the fact that it does offer a good compromise.

In essence, we are giving up a chokepoint with luxuries for one that doesn't have luxuries. We may as well just let them have BoP so at least we can keep our luxes near EQ.

In anycase, I support a "first one there" concept. We don't owe CFC anything. Sure, they may have faced the GCA assault for a long time, but they brought it upon themselves. It shouldn't be our fault that we don't play stupidly. :P

"To the victor goes the spoils."

	28-10-2003 06:23									#26
	Got spare money?

As for losing the Luxuries, it won't happen. It would be equivalant to having a trade route, through their territory. It's the same as having a city connected to their trade network, going through a Harbor to us. As long as we are at peace, we will still have the silks.

And by the time we have to worry about Riders, we will have long secured the southern silks, so it's not an issue at all.

E_T

	28-10-2003 06:49									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I'm waiting to hear some more discussion before voting.

While E_T's suggestion is decent, I'd like to hear more about the idea of compensating them for BoP by building infrastructure for them.

	28-10-2003 09:04									#28
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I honestly don't know why so much fuss is over a crappy city (either BoP or Eq) and considering that the productive gap between us and CFC might very well widen why some of you fear a Rider attack as if it were some sort of game-winning unit that we have absolutely no hope of defense against. For every Rider they build we'll most likley build I dunno how many knights let alone defensive units.

Aren't we just being a wee bit paranoid of a team which is but a mere shadow of our industrial and military power?

	28-10-2003 09:37									#29
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I honestly don't know why so much fuss is over a crappy city (either BoP or Eq) and considering that the productive gap between us and CFC might very well widen why some of you fear a Rider attack as if it were some sort of game-winning unit that we have absolutely no hope of defense against. For every Rider they build we'll most likley build I dunno how many knights let alone defensive units. Aren't we just being a wee bit paranoid of a team which is but a mere shadow of our industrial and military power?

It's not paranoia...I'm not convinced we need CFC.
If our economy can easily match theirs, why not conquor them now. (After GCA)

That makes it a 3 team game.
GWT & CGN will be at war, and will be scrambling for us to help, so there will be no problems finding another tech trade partner.

Perhaps listing the reasons why keeping CFC alive vs owning our our continent would help.

	28-10-2003 10:18									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree with H_E. CFC does not really offer us that much.

Excerpt from chat:

quote: [19:20] E_T> I'm starting to thing that it would be best to wait a bit more for our GA and have both us and CFC trigger each other's GA's in a Phony War [19:23] BigFree> Thta's still possible, unless we want to take out CFC before they get too big. Right now, they are small enough for us to handle without losing to many resources. If we grant them too many concessions, then CFC will rise closer to our own power since we are doing the brunt of the fighting now. [19:24] BigFree> Im not sure if taking out CFC soon after GCA isn't so bad of an idea [19:25] Kloreep-dinner> Same here BF [19:25] Kloreep-dinner> Their bad playing style makes them worse allies and better targets [19:26] BigFree> yep

It will cost us more latter in terms of resouces spent to get rid of CFC. Will CFC provide benefits that outweigh that cost? I do not think so. CGN and GWT are at war. Christ, CGN has accused GWT of cheating on purpose (they said it was no accident). Do you think GWT and CGN will ever be 'friendly'? Not ever, IMO.

We will always have a trading partner, be it either GWT or CGN or both if CFC is gone. It will be a three team race with those two on the other Continent at each others throats.

I'm looking at this like it's our game to lose here. We have a great positon right now. Most of it not of our own doing. CDG killed themselves, CFC started a war when it wasn't needed, GCA went fro broke against CFC neglecting to think about Apolyton. CGN and GWT are fighting instead of working together; the only reaosn that is a big deal is that GWT and CGN are realtively equal in strength right now, so niether will likely win whatever war they are fighting now. Besides, if one should gain an advantage, we would start to help the otherside to 'even' it out. The same principal does not apply to APO and CFC right now, becasue we are so much stronger than CFC. But, if we let CFC build up, then they could get closer to our strength in terms of military(due to Rider's and a GA), but not economically, ever.