29-10-2003 13:45									#91
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I made a post ealier stating that I supported Dom's tough stance on CFC while saying that I supported ET's idea of giving them EQ. I can support both at the same time, because, as vondrack says, EQ does not give them any significant military advantage over us in the short to medium future.

	29-10-2003 17:03									#92
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Call me nuts (and I'm sure someone will) but why don't we actually sit down in an honest discussion with CFC on these points?

Namely:

"Look, both our teams are knowledgeable enough to read the map and know what it means for this continent's future. CFC has two options here - trying a probably crazy attack against Apolyton to jumpstart themselves back into the game that will drag us both down, or helping us out towards a cooperative victory that will, admittedly, have the Apolyton flag as the eventual winner. CFC is a victim of circumstances that could just as easily have been us in other times, and has played very well up to this point. Because we've worked together so well in the past, we're not going to hide our concerns or intentions. We want to win this and think we have a good shot at doing so, and we now ask you very openly: is CFC going to be a roadblock enemy, or a springboard brother-in-arms?"

Sure, they could lie to us, but whatever answer they DID give might be illuminating to the mindset of the team.

	29-10-2003 18:16									#93
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If I were the negotiator for CFC, you would get a very polite, very friendly, but totally vague answer telling you zilch about the intentions/plans of my team.

Why? Am I such a slimy bastard? I do not think so. But imagine they openly answer your question:

1) Roadblock enemy - ok, this is as good as telling us: "Guys, once you are finished with GCA, make sure you push on into our lands, as we are going to cut your throat at the first opportunity. You better kill us ASAP, since the longer you give us to prepare, the more of a problem we will be once you attack." I would call them nuts if they respond in this way (however "bold" it would be).

2) Springboard brother-in-arms - by agreeing to what you state (and what, I admit, currently seems obvious), CFC would be giving the game up. Why would they do that? It's early medieval only. Sure they are not doing well so far, but who knows what can happen down the road... keeping their options open is their SOLE reason to stay in this game. If they wanted to give it up, they could as well gift all their cities to us...

Thus - if I were them (and I do not think they are AS dumb to act very differently), I would give you an answer that would not antagonize you, but that would keep my options open.

But then... if you know that whatever answer you get, its information value is very low to none... why bother asking the question at all? Especially when you have to ask in the "you know you are done, so why not at least help us do better than you did?" way.

I admit that those that say CFC is likely to attack us at one moment or another are, speaking strict logic, right. The chances of that not happening are slim. But do we want it to happen now, soon, later, much later...?

Actually, the crucial question is: Do we want it to happen NOW or SOON?

If the answer is YES, then screw them, keep both chokepoints and whatever else beyond BoP we take from GCA. Every single bit we give up in their favor is bad.

But if the answer is NO, then let's actually do whatever reasonably possible to keep them in our bed, happy about our relationship. If they, in the meantime, while being "happy" about our relationship, plan for attacking us, cool. Planning does no harm to us. Let them plan. The longer they plan, the better. We finish GCA off, recover, put up our defenses and wait for them to come (having them as tech trading partners all along). I believe this is better than having to handle them NOW or in the near future...

It buys us time. Possibly lots of time. Time we can use to foster our "friendship" and perhaps even talk them into considering unusual deals like "guys, what would you say about invading the other continent? would it not be cool if the 2 biggest sites conquered the whole ISDG world? sure, Poly would be the overall winner, but you'd still get your share of glory - your second place would be well deserved..." (as opposed to: "let's cripple Poly on this continent, so that if we/CFC do not win, neither do they").

I know it's a long shot and a lot of diplo efforts to achieve anything like this. But we DO have the FAM up to such a task. So why not letting them give it a try? If they fail (and it would be no shame, as the "logic" says it's better to try taking us out first), then I believe we do have economists and generals capable of "fixing" that.

	29-10-2003 18:35									#94
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And as an additional note... what F-P says about a honest discussion may be a good idea... LATER ON. Not now, because at the moment, the mutual trust is still a bit fragile (and WE are a bit fragile, too - imagine having to withdraw troops from GCA lands towards EQ).

ATM, we cannot offer anything "solid", but "admit you are out of the main race, so make yourself useful by helping us win". Anything beyond that (like the crazy other continent invasion plan) requires MUCH MORE trust that must be built step by step over time - by being a TRUE partner (even if a "senior" one, given the circumstances). If granting them an (almost useless for us) chokepoint city makes them feel better about us, why not granting it to them? It costs us little and may only improve the relations...

I do not say those opposing the "friendly" approach are wrong. They may be right, it may really be better to kill CFC ASAP. But maybe not... we will never find out. I just believe that betting on keeping CFC alive as our partner offers slightly better odds than playing it hard with them.

AFAIK - was it not CFC that did some spying for us in the beginning of the war basically as their own initiative (not sure about this, I recall seeing just a brief notice somewhere)? Was that not an extremely friendly gesture? Why did they help a team they - following the cold logic - would have to fight later on anyway?

Events in the PtWDG lead me to believe that - however surprising it may sound - even teams don't always follow the cold logic only. There are other, difficult to describe things coming into play - sense of comraderie or "hatred" against other teams in the game, honour (mind you - this is a tricky term, everybody understands it different), glory... while the cold logic is usually "clear", what this or that team does may be very different.

	29-10-2003 19:43									#95
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Am I such a slimy bastard? I do not think so.

Don't worry. We (I) don't think so, either.


It all seems to come down to the question: when, if at all, are we planning/hoping to take on CFC? Now, soon, later, or not at all? If the answer is 'later' or 'not at all', it's better to keep them happy for now. Even if this means keeping up an army just-in-case.

	29-10-2003 19:44									#96
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quote: Events in the PtWDG lead me to believe that - however surprising it may sound - even teams don't always follow the cold logic only. There are other, difficult to describe things coming into play - sense of comraderie or "hatred" against other teams in the game, honour (mind you - this is a tricky term, everybody understands it different), glory... while the cold logic is usually "clear", what this or that team does may be very different.

Absolutely.

I think it's best for us to have CFC alive and cooperating with us (research!). The "tell 'em like it is" approach is a pretty good way of goading them into attack us, IMO. Perhaps some Voxians can speak to this, but I definitely got the sense that Gathering Storm came off like we were "telling it like it was" to them back in the early years of PTWDemoI, and they resented it. Vox was backed into a corner (a small penninsula, actually), with a strong neighbor that negotiated from strength. Result: Immortal rush (though they did try and colonize the other continent first, something I don't think CFC could even contemplate in this game).

The geopolitical situation is different in this game, in that there are only 2 other civs out there should we have to kill CFC. When GS & Vox fought, elimination of either side would not have left the victor in a bad research situation, because there were 4 other healthy civs to deal with. In this game, killing CFC means we either must research on our own, or convince the big boys on the other continent to trade with us. They may, or they may not.

Here's a question: has either one of them had their GA yet? Don't both of them still have UU's to use? If you're a major heavyweight and you get into your GA, why exactly would you help the #3 civ (a civ, mind you, that did very well to scratch and claw its way into 3rd) catch up?

-Arrian

	29-10-2003 21:10									#97
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Back to the BoP issue. A quick question: CFC wants to have BoP to move out ships from the lake. But can't they already do so? The coast tiles W of BoP are N-S of each other... If yes, and GCA abandons BoP, we might want to leave the chokepoint neutral to allow both civs to sail through it.

There is a very small land bridge there, so you can NOT sail ships through it. You can only sail through it if you had a city there to act as a canal.

E_T

	29-10-2003 21:39									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon CFC will want to win just as much as we do. Our stance needs to be one of firmness - we can offer CFC alternatives, but our interests must come first, and giving CFC a city they could only use to attack us - nothing else! - is not the way to do it.

I agree! Why give away a city CFC will use to attack us from. It's just plain stupid.

Remember that Eq. is OUR city (CFC has never claimed it to be theirs) and should really be left out of this discussion.
BoP is the city we talking about, the question is do we or CFC get it. I say we should have it since we will be the ones having fought our way to it.

CFC must deal with not having access to the ocean from the sea. If they refuse to cooperate in trade because of this matter, we will just have to destroy them.

BTW: CFC WILL accept not getting BoP (or Eq.). They just have to since we are much stronger.

	29-10-2003 21:47									#99
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Maybe we can start negotiating the new deal - where we give them Equilibrium - now?

	29-10-2003 23:55									#100
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I would rather leave it as a to be decided issue, Trip. I don't read a consensus on that issue in this thread.

	30-10-2003 00:01									#101
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Fried-Psitalon, there was a conversation along the lines of what you suggested, but with different language. It was a discussion with Octavian about what next after GCA that went on during a general chat about the war(s).

Cooperating vs the other continent was the direction it moved in.

	30-10-2003 00:02									#102
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E_T's idea wasn't even introduced until 6 or 7 of the votes in favor of CFC were already cast. I don't believe the poll itself is an accurate reflection of the team's viewpoint. I've only seen a couple people who have been against the idea of trading BoP for Equilibrium.

	30-10-2003 00:07									#103
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Vehemently opposed.

Also, I believe that if we put it off, we could capture BoP and may never have to give up either of the choke points.

In short, it is their issue to push, if they don't push it, all the better for us.

	30-10-2003 02:43									#104
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This is a tough issue to decide. Lets see where CFC leads itrself down this road. We can be nice and cordial in the mean time.

	30-10-2003 03:35									#105
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New proposal: We give CFC 100 gold (or something else) as a sign of our goodwill instead of giving them BoP og Eq.

Good idea?

	30-10-2003 03:48									#106
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I'm sort of leaning towards just ignoring the situation, capturing BoP and then dealing with it. There's no reason to do anything blindly, and chances are GCA will abandon it anyways and it'll come down to who has the closest settler.

If we do capture it though, then we'll be in a position to either keep both if we want, give on up if we think their good will is worth it, or demanding concessions in trade for it. If they capture it first, then its a moot point really.

	30-10-2003 04:11									#107
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At this point it seems clear to me that Apolyton is sharply divided on this issue and that we probably should not come to a final decision now.

We're going to have to table this issue for later in the game.

For now, we should tell CFC that there's a lot of debate and disagreement on our team on how to handle it. Tell them we're sorry that it's taking so long. Maybe briefly outline the two sides and portray both sides in a very logical fashion.

Tell them that we DO agree on the alliance and on expanding our present cooperation. Try to set in stone the terms of the alliance and table the matter of the chokepoints.

We should STRONGLY HINT to them that the chokepoint issue may end up being settled by who takes the city (cities?) first, and that they may want to become more active in conquering GCA cities on their side of the lake if they want to help their case.

--Togas

	30-10-2003 05:17									#108
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Since reading the Vondracks & others posts, I am softening my original position of telling CFC to get stuffed.

I agree with Togas.

Play nice for now, because we need them as an additional distraction against GCA.

But I still want to take CFC out at the earliest opportunity. Yes it means we are screwing them over, but lets play to win and make the tough decisions.

I am not convinced that we need CFC as a trade partner. (Especially when I think they will eventually turn on us. I would if I was in their position).

And I am not convinced that GWT and CGN will embargo us. (Especially if the FAM puts as much effort in making them our friends as they successfully have done with CFC)

	30-10-2003 05:27									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel I am not convinced that we need CFC as a trade partner. (Especially when I think they will eventually turn on us. I would if I was in their position). And I am not convinced that GWT and CGN will embargo us. (Especially if the FAM puts as much effort in making them our friends as they successfully have done with CFC)

Well I am not convinced either, but they COULD shut us out. That is where a further trade partner may come in handy. If we aim to attack CFC, we'd better be damn sure we can stand on our own two feet if CGN and GWT exclude us. That is hard to judge right now.

	30-10-2003 11:27									#110
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Either GWT or CGN can be had to be on our side; Or, a better way to look at it is: Once one of those two Civ's starts to 'lose' against the other, the 'loser' will seek us out and offer us the moon to help them out. The 'winner' will likely offer a lot to counter that. We will have to choose to side with the 'loser', so as to keep the power over there about equal.

	30-10-2003 11:39									#111
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Once one of those two Civ's starts to 'lose' against the other, the 'loser' will seek us out and offer us the moon to help them out. The 'winner' will likely offer a lot to counter that. We will have to choose to side with the 'loser', so as to keep the power over there about equal.

Hmm... isn't that precisely the "irrational behavior" that GWT is doing right now?

Chosing which team to side with IMO will be a much more complex thing than just the winner or the loser, there are just way to many variables at stake.

	30-10-2003 11:45									#112
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Well I am not convinced either, but they COULD shut us out. That is where a further trade partner may come in handy. If we aim to attack CFC, we'd better be damn sure we can stand on our own two feet if CGN and GWT exclude us. That is hard to judge right now.

The moment we feel we can be the equal of the other continent, THEN I will agree with no hesitation at taking out CFC

	30-10-2003 12:29									#113
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Do we need to make a decision now, or can we keep talking with CFC until either one of us stands before the gates of (a probably abandoned by then) BoP?
A lot of things might have changed in the mean time.

Furthermore, I did not vote in this poll. I don't like settling issues by creating a poll before it has been discussed. Next time, please discuss before voting!

	30-10-2003 13:42									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Hmm... isn't that precisely the "irrational behavior" that GWT is doing right now? Chosing which team to side with IMO will be a much more complex thing than just the winner or the loser, there are just way to many variables at stake.

I never said that what GWT is doing as far as helping out GCA is 'irrational'. It's very smart for GWT to do it. Hell, CGN would do it as well if they could do it covertly. Strength of position not only has to do with your strength, but the relative postion of the rest of the Civ's strength's as well. If you can't get strong, make the other's weak, then you will 'appear' strong in comparison.

	30-10-2003 13:45									#115
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Do we need to make a decision now, or can we keep talking with CFC until either one of us stands before the gates of (a probably abandoned by then) BoP? A lot of things might have changed in the mean time.

We can wait BFM. We may be able to even convince CFC to after BoP themselves, that will take away some of GCA's forces and limit their ability to build new units to add to Catchopolis.

	30-10-2003 13:56									#116
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we can delay the issue until CFC brings it back up. What I suggest is the following:

If OctX or any other CFCer brings up the issue we tell them that the debate is raging in our forums and that we really have no definite answer since it is almost 50-50 and we can't risk pissing off half the team before debating more. We can tell CFC that, as this debate goes on, if they were to take BoP then it really would be hard for us to demand it afterwards.

In short, "if you want a chance of getting it come and fight for it". It is NOT saying we have agreed on handing it to them if it is us who capture it or if it is razed. It can help divert forces like BF said in case GCA actually wants to make a stand for them, it will also perhaps cause casualties on CFC's side which would also be cool.

Agreed?

	30-10-2003 17:17									#117
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That sounds reasonable and... is it not truth, anyway?

	30-10-2003 22:19									#119
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Sounds good to me MZ. We definitely will need more debate internally...but like BFM said we don't really need to make a decision now. And if CFC takes it out of our hands by capturing the city themselves, so much the better since it makes our war easier for us.