28-10-2003 01:23									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka So.. when do we get Karelia back?

When did you ever have it?

	28-10-2003 01:25									#32
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lord of the mark, correct. We don't have reportings of mass rapings etc.. In general, Russian soldiers behaviour is not comparable in here than it was in perhaps Germany. In here we had pretty much straight fighting going on. But then again, we did evacuate our people and were able to fall back in good order, so that none was left to invading soldiers. That's why I said burn the houses and blow up the bridges and leave no land in good condition (to make support harder for the enemy, no houses to set up things, food, nothing). So we wouldn't know. But, in general, we had a straight war without too much of these kind of things. Of course there are some individual situations, but nothing worth mentioning really.

But then again, the RUssian soldiers really didn't have a deep hatred for us as far as I understand. Sure, war, but nothing TOO personal from their side. Most of them weren't actually sure why, and the rest of them thought they were to liberate us. But in Germany... Nazis had advanced deep inside Russia, killing lots of folks and things like that.. so they surely must have hated Nazis. Also, soldiers were forced to fight (naturally) and in long war you see your buddies die etc.. lots of casualties, it's not like you start loving the enemy. And when they got to Berlin, I guess some people just went too far. Jusitified? No.. Understandable? I guess so.

	28-10-2003 01:31									#33
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che, before Russia attacked us we had it.

Anyway, it also must be noted, that there was very little to loot and rape, because most of the fighting happened in areas with nothing but forrest and individual houses. But I must also say, that Russian soldiers didn't show the kind of will to loot and rape here. Also no reports of mass killings of POWs for example. We got ours back, and they got theirs back and both had reasonable treatment. But I'm sure if other side had made the mistake to do nasty stuff, it would have affected the other side to do it too. But in a way I guess we were both gentlemen if you can say it like that.

	28-10-2003 01:38									#34
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's not excusable, but considering what the Nazis did to the USSR, it's certainly understandable. Twenty to thirty million dead countrymen will make you want revenge.

It's a loosy excuse for raping the prisoners of the Nazi's.

	28-10-2003 03:30									#35
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Well, from what I've read on other forums, it seems that while a bit widespread in the Western press, apparently there are very few direct testimonies of the mass rapes, and the sometimes quoted "2 million rapes" figure has no evidence to support it outside of a doctor's random calculation...

In any case, I certainly can and do admit that there may well have been many cases of rapes and other brutalities committed by the Soviets, but not nearly as much as some would think...

	28-10-2003 04:16									#36
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You can't blame Russkies considering what Germans did to them first. At least Russkies weren't bent on exterminating the Germanic Evil Race.

	28-10-2003 04:25									#37
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever oh, you mean medievil

No, I think he means 'medieval', actually.

	28-10-2003 07:30									#38
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Looting certainly did take place. Army officers sometimes managed to bring with them more things than would fit in a simple suitcase (ordinary soldiers were usually not that lucky). I am personally aware of one of such cases. The father of one of my mother's friends brought with him quite a fortune from Germany (but I don't remember details, I'd have to ask my mother). IIRC, he brought a car among other things. But he is a very decent and honorable guy, doesn't look like a looter at all. Well, the situation of that time was such that looting Germany was not felt as something wrong. Even decent people were sometimes involved in it.

	28-10-2003 08:57									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka che, before Russia attacked us we had it.

But, unfortunately for you, it will always belong to Russia now

quote: Anyway, it also must be noted, that there was very little to loot and rape, because most of the fighting happened in areas with nothing but forrest and individual houses. But I must also say, that Russian soldiers didn't show the kind of will to loot and rape here. Also no reports of mass killings of POWs for example. We got ours back, and they got theirs back and both had reasonable treatment. But I'm sure if other side had made the mistake to do nasty stuff, it would have affected the other side to do it too. But in a way I guess we were both gentlemen if you can say it like that.

Thats because we love you Finns Even if you harbour Pikku G.

	28-10-2003 08:58									#40
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FYI, the American, French and English soldiers also liberally looted Nazi buildings and homes. What we did not do, AFAIK, is rape.

The looting is portrayed in the recent "true" account of the war in the book and movie "Band of Brothers."

	28-10-2003 09:05									#41
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The war between the Elbe and the Volga was one of no quarters, I mean, well over half of all people killed in WW2 died between those rivers. After the horrific damage brought upon the western Soviet Union, Poland and many other areas, why would anyone be shocked at the behavior of the Soviet forces when they came into Germany? The Germans raped and plundered, the Soviets raped and plundered, and several cities like Warsaw and Breslau were almost utterly annahilated (were are talking 90% destruction). And after the war tens of millions were forced to move and relocate.

Was this all horrific and beyond what we consider the pale today? Yes, but it was that kind of war.

	28-10-2003 09:10									#42
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GePap, I have to agree with you. Clearly the NAZI's conducted a "scorched earth" policy when they retreated, trying to impose on the advancing Soviets a reverse of what happened to Napolean.

Something similar happened to the South during the civil war during Sherman's march to the sea. Had the anyone from the South been able to lay their hands on Sherman, I am sure his death would not have been quick.

	28-10-2003 09:29									#43
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One account I read of the Battle of Berlin described how advancing Russian troops would remove light bulbs from their sockets, thinking that the bulbs themselves were sufficinet for illumination.

	28-10-2003 09:36									#44
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Germany must have been a very strange place for most Soviet forces, a place of goods they had rarely or ever seen.

But think about it: if you are a poor peasent from the Cacauses, and you come to Germany and you see wealth far beyond what you have, and then you think how these people, who are so rich, came and looted and plundered in your home, what are you to think? Why would such rich people loot the poor unless they were evil?

	28-10-2003 10:23									#45
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The Germans raped and plundered, the Soviets raped and plundered

I'd like to issue a formal protest against equating the actions of the two sides like this. Yes, the Soviets raped and plundered. But the Nazis raped, plundered AND mass-slaughtered. Besides, the Soviets did this in a rage over what the Nazis had done in the USSR, while the Nazis didn't have such an "excuse" for behaving like animals.

	28-10-2003 11:08									#46
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This is also a distinction between Sherman and the NAZI's as well. But not between Sherman and the Soviets in Germany.

	28-10-2003 11:31									#47
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The Red Army had to restrained not to loot & rape Lithuania.

	28-10-2003 12:01									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Saras The Red Army had to restrained not to loot & rape Lithuania.

Too bad too. Maybe if this had not happend, Lithuania would be a massive sales lot for all the cars stolen in Poland

quote: What we did not do, AFAIK, is rape.

Hmm, but you have done such things in many wars....The most prominent of which being....
Doo yoo speek TENG VIET?
I doo noo speek TENG VIET

quote: The Germans raped and plundered, the Soviets raped and plundered,

Oh come on. A bunch of young soldiers finally get into the capital city of the government that liberally looted Soviet cities and raped their women. They enslaved people and killed them mericlessly, and you blame the Soviet soldiers for finally taking out their anger against Nazi Germany?

quote: Yes, but it was that kind of war.

Yes. It was World War 2

quote: IIRC, he brought a car among other things

In a suitcase?!

quote: It's a loosy excuse for raping the prisoners of the Nazi's.

Lousy, and hardly. Considering the horror the Nazis inflicted on not only the Soviets but all of Europe...Not justifiable, but certainly not "loosy"

quote: Of course they did. But this is not to bash Rooskies in general.. I guess they were tired, in war, get victory, in Berlin.. what do you do? You turn them lose, they'll smash the place in half and loot.

Yeah. Imagine if Finland reached....Karelia even I shudder to think

quote: Hell. Look at Tassadar, then tell me Russkie's don't hold a grudge.

Only against you Texans.
Rossiya Deutschland
Rossiya Suomi
Death to Texas!

quote: Not looking at the flag in their shoulder.

Yes. The Soviets used to open up their arms and put the Soviet flag in them (On medication, pardon my...jerkiness)

quote: And the soviet soldiers were trained to hate the Germans with all their heart.

Yep.

quote: bricks

Were not talking about Warsaw here

quote: As I understand it, all allied troops looted as they went through Germany and Austria,

I seem to see you more and more coming towards the center.

quote: The soviets raped and looted everywhere they went.

quote: Nobody of the women's 'comrades' back home was willing to hear their stories, since they could 'obviously' not be true

I wonder what choice they had. A Soviet official asks "Do you believe these obvious lies?". Say yes and die. Say no and live.
Hmm, pretty hard choice there

quote: So.. when do we get Karelia back?

Karelia may be returned to the Finno Oblast when it is fully integrated into the New Soviet Union

	28-10-2003 12:04									#49
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And now, in Iraq, US soldiers don't loot, though US corporations and local citizens sure do.

	28-10-2003 12:11									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley US soldiers don't loot, .

I hope this is sarcasm

	28-10-2003 12:15									#51
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The History Channel just ran a piece on von Paulus, the commander of the Sixth Army that surrendered at Stalingrad. It said that von Paulus rescinded the standing order of the previous army commander that his troops could do anything they wanted to the Russian civilians. Von Paulus apparently was appalled by what the German army had been doing under its previous commander.

Obviously, this "restraint" may have expired with von Paulus's command in January 1943.

	28-10-2003 12:15									#52
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When the Soviets got into Germany they took everything that wasn't nailed down and then once they'd done that they started to disassemble factories and other buildings so that they could be moved to Russia and reconstructed. They stole literally everything they could and called it compensation for the Nazi invasion which is a claim with some merit.

In fact the Russian motorcycle maker Ural still makes a slightly updated version of a pre-war BMW motorcycle in a facotry that was originally a BMW factory in Bavaria but which the Soviets moved to the eastern edge of Europe. To this day they are still making the same stolen motor cycle design in the same stolen factory.

	28-10-2003 12:33									#53
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Oerdin, this reminds me of a story told by an oldtimer in the disk drive business. He related that he sold an obsolete disk drive line to the Chicoms in the late '70s or early 80s. When he went for a visit nearly 15 years later, he saw that the original disk drive line was in full operation - with the original parts. Apparently, they would assemble the disk drives, see that they worked, and then promptly disassemble them and restore the parts to the assembly line.

Now, why would they do this?

Apparently, they had no source outside China for new parts for the obsolete disk drive, nor did they have any ability to make the parts in China. Thus they had no choice but to keep the assembly line running by dissambling every drive they built.

At least with the BMW motorcycle, the Russians stole the plans for the parts. But the fact that they never improved the design goes to show you a fundamental lack of know how.

	28-10-2003 17:00									#54
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and that is why communism fell: because they couldn't keep up with the tech race. being unable to keep up technologically, without having a free market to drive r&d and the economy, they were unable to match the us budget.

had very little to do with reagan.

	28-10-2003 20:51									#55
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che, so what happened back then you thought as tough love... naturally, we didn't want communism but you knew the real way to glory and wanted to help us.. thanks

But, I hereby give you my personal blessing of bombing Pikku G. Get the planes in the air, I'll try to convince our side to be cool and not try anything funny while you do little 'purification' .

	28-10-2003 21:12									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed and that is why communism fell: because they couldn't keep up with the tech race. being unable to keep up technologically, without having a free market to drive r&d and the economy, they were unable to match the us budget. had very little to do with reagan.

...but Reagan raised the US's Defense and scientific research budget to a number that he knew the soviets could never match...specifically because of the reasons you posted.

So yes, it had a lot to do with Reagan...he took advantage of the USSR's main weakness.

	28-10-2003 22:34									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Lousy, and hardly. Considering the horror the Nazis inflicted on not only the Soviets but all of Europe...Not justifiable, but certainly not "loosy"

OMG you find a typo and must laugh.

quote: I wonder what choice they had. A Soviet official asks "Do you believe these obvious lies?". Say yes and die. Say no and live. Hmm, pretty hard choice there

Just shows you how pityfull it is to even try to find an excuse or justification: The horrible behaviour of the Red Army in WW2 has as much to do with montruous Soviet indoctrination as it has with anything the soldiers might have experienced from the nazi's.

But I was not talking about the Soviet Union here, I was talking about the Dutch Communist resistance. It showes how backward the stalinists are, that when personal experience doesn't fit the picture, you just shut your eyes and ridicule the victim.

	28-10-2003 22:59									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka che, before Russia attacked us we had it.

You only had a tiny sliver of it. The vast majority of Karelia was always in Russian/Soviet hands, even back in the days of Novgorod.

	28-10-2003 23:11									#59
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Sure. That makes it ok to take it all . If I'm poor, it's ok to take everything I have, since it's not that much. 400 000 homes.. who counts!

	28-10-2003 23:20									#60
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Well, you should say, when do we get back the piece of Karelia, instead of just saying Karelia.