28-10-2003 23:24									#61
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Because we called that area Karelia, and because it was not just a piece, it was rather large. That's why.

	29-10-2003 01:05									#62
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quote: and that is why communism fell:

I disagree. Communism fell because it was too authoritarian and people within a communist state didn't want it. They wanted free speech more than they wanted factories.

quote: But, I hereby give you my personal blessing of bombing Pikku G. Get the planes in the air, I'll try to convince our side to be cool and not try anything funny while you do little 'purification' .

I will inform Putin to this most wise decision Where will he be though?!

quote: OMG you find a typo and must laugh.

I laugh at your pitiful, russophobic attempts at critisim.
Though the typo certainly halped

quote: Just shows you how pityfull it is to even try to find an excuse or justification: The horrible behaviour of the Red Army in WW2 has as much to do with montruous Soviet indoctrination as it has with anything the soldiers might have experienced from the nazi's.

Hardly. While training does have some to do with it...Imagine if you knew somebody who was raped, or you FOUGHT in Stalingrad or you were temporarily captured and then rescued by the Soviets...Don't you think that would create a LOT of resentment?

quote: It showes how backward the stalinists are,

This I agree with.

quote: and because it was not just a piece, it was rather large.

And now....It's ROSSIYAS!

	29-10-2003 01:13									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Ned This is also a distinction between Sherman and the NAZI's as well. But not between Sherman and the Soviets in Germany.

Pardon? There was large scale rape during the March through Georgia? Citation?

	29-10-2003 01:34									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Because we called that area Karelia, and because it was not just a piece, it was rather large.

Not compared to Soviet Karelia it wasn't,

	29-10-2003 02:36									#65
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Oh, btw, the red army committed genocide - they killed ca. 200 000 ethnic Lithuanians in East Prussia (now Kaliningrad oblast). I say they have great forward strategic planning.

	29-10-2003 02:38									#66
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Saras, yes... saying that I meant strictly what happened between us, and not other cases...

	29-10-2003 02:45									#67
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it was more like 130 000. The total figure, including Germans and Poles is more like 350 000. There are some gory accounts of mass rapes and public burnings

	29-10-2003 04:15									#68
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There are no exact numbers, sources vary from ca. 100000 - 800000 raped women in Berlin from spring to autumn of 45. According to a documentation of the ARD tv station ca. 10000 of them died, a lot of suicide, ca. 20 % of them became pregnant.

For the entire East German area numbers of up to 1.9 million cases of rape are given until the mid-50ies when everything "normalized". It is mainly argued that they weren´t done as revenge but mainly as a result of the horrors esp. of the warfare in the east which lead to a certain level of aggression and dehumanization even on the side of the winners. Several thousand cases in West Germany are also mentioned.

Oh, and this is not meant to bash Russia, I know what Wehrmacht SS SD etc. did there, but it is a story that shouldn´t be forgotten either.

	29-10-2003 05:25									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Oh, btw, the red army committed genocide - they killed ca. 200 000 ethnic Lithuanians in East Prussia (now Kaliningrad oblast). I say they have great forward strategic planning.

quote: it was more like 130 000. The total figure, including Germans and Poles is more like 350 000. There are some gory accounts of ... public burnings

I don't believe that.

	29-10-2003 07:09									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Oh come on. A bunch of young soldiers finally get into the capital city of the government that liberally looted Soviet cities and raped their women. They enslaved people and killed them mericlessly, and you blame the Soviet soldiers for finally taking out their anger against Nazi Germany?

Uh, revenge is always irrational and unjustified. Yes, I blame the Soviets for what the Soviets did and I blame the Nazis for what the Nazis did.

Plunder is excusable, but physical violence isn't.

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar And now....It's ROSSIYAS!

Valid spellings are "rossiya's" and "rossiyi". Pick one.

	29-10-2003 07:37									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar I laugh at your pitiful, russophobic attempts at critisim. Though the typo certainly halped

I'm quite sure I have talked about soviet and not russian Where is your claim of 'russophobic' based on?

quote: Hardly. While training does have some to do with it...Imagine if you knew somebody who was raped, or you FOUGHT in Stalingrad or you were temporarily captured and then rescued by the Soviets...Don't you think that would create a LOT of resentment?

As you may have noticed, I do know people who have been raped by the soviet advancing army. Girls then. Few countries in the world nowadays would allow penetration even with consent of the girls that age. And yet you ask me to condone the revenge imposed on them by the Red Army? For crimes commited by their countrymen?

Will you condone me now, when I can easily go outdoors, **** the **** out of some pityfull russian prostitute on the street here, humiliate them (god they are gastly creatures working in the gutter here, and they only cost a handfull of euro's) since I am enraged by what their countrymen has done to my family?

I hope you do not.

	29-10-2003 08:03									#72
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I still don't get this thread.

The war in the east was a war of annahilation, a war of ideology, a war of no quarters: no one was spared from any side. It was a brilliant case example of all the worst human urges, impulses and actions. IN this sense it was unlike anything else in WW2, the only things coming close being actions taken by the Japanese in Asia. The western front was a war recreation with a tea time compared to the Eastern front: so why exactly should anyone be either surprised or shocked that hell was brought upon the German population like it was brought down to every single population between the elbe and the Volga?

All we need to learn form this is that we must strive so that a campaing of this sort never ever takes place again.

	29-10-2003 08:05									#73
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WW2 was, like all others, a bad war.

	29-10-2003 08:13									#74
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NOt all wars are equal, nor are all campaings.

War has been generally getting more and more antiseptic, regulated and controlled in the last 200 years, compared to the free for all of ancient times, and even then there were acts that stood out for viciousness and brutality.

But the Eastern front of WW2 was almost a throwback to older times of war with absolutely no quarters given, nothing spared and nothing sacred. I mean, as huge as the devastation in the west was, the devastation in the east was significantly higher, as a simple examination of population looses, both in absolutes and percentages show.

	29-10-2003 12:41									#75
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quote: Oh, btw, the red army committed genocide - they killed ca. 200 000 ethnic Lithuanians in East Prussia

Genocide is the elimination of an entire ethnic group.
You'r still here, aren't you?

quote: Uh, revenge is always irrational and unjustified.

True, however to blame them so harshly is really, well, stupid. It's human nature and quite understandable considering what happend.

quote: Valid spellings are "rossiya's" and "rossiyi". Pick one.

Don't be a Nazi.

quote: I'm quite sure I have talked about soviet and not russian Where is your claim of 'russophobic' based on?

Oh my....

quote: And yet you ask me to condone the revenge imposed

When have I asked? Can you quote me?

quote: I hope you do not.

Now when have I proposed killing someone because of their nationality? Can you quote me where I say this?
Really, when you make things up such as this (which have very little basis in reality) REALLY weakens your argument.

Try again
(Pre-emptive wordfare: Lithuania is an ongoing joke between Saras and I. I do not advocate the killing of Lithuanians.)

quote: It was a brilliant case example of all the worst human urges, impulses and actions.

Finally, some rationality

	29-10-2003 13:18									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Genocide is the elimination of an entire ethnic group. You'r still here, aren't you?

By your definition Hitlers mass murder of Jews wasn't genocide either. Jews are still there, aren't they?

	29-10-2003 13:36									#77
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Tass has a lot of entertainment value.

	29-10-2003 13:45									#78
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond I don't believe that.

The sources are in Lithuanian; iirc, it's the genocide research center, which does research on genocide committed in Lithuania, both by Soviets, Germans and Lithuanian collaborators.

	29-10-2003 13:59									#79
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How can mass rape of young womwn be said to be understandable. Why even if you have been traeted appalingly want to rape someone.

	29-10-2003 14:11									#80
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mass-psychosis?

	29-10-2003 17:08									#81
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quote: ...but Reagan raised the US's Defense and scientific research budget to a number that he knew the soviets could never match...specifically because of the reasons you posted. So yes, it had a lot to do with Reagan...he took advantage of the USSR's main weakness.

he hastened its downfall.

had he not done that, the ussr would have splintered and fell within the next two decades simply because they would be unable to compete, both with the faster pace of technology and the rise of the internet.

unlike the chinese government, the soviet government was a lot less receptive to change.

	29-10-2003 20:35									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed he hastened its downfall.

That's the only point that I was trying to make

quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed had he not done that, the ussr would have splintered and fell within the next two decades

Well, that's an inference, but assuming that it's true, It is most assuredly better for all involved (except maybe the Kremlin ) that Reagan helped bring it to fruition.

	29-10-2003 20:56									#83
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my point is that it wasn't him who killed the soviet union. he just happened to be lucky and in the right place... and not do much of anything at all.

	29-10-2003 21:40									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed my point is that it wasn't him who killed the soviet union. he just happened to be lucky and in the right place... and not do much of anything at all.

On that I disagree... it was part of Reagan's game plan to economicaly disable the Soviets under the guise of weapons development...

I do believe you somewhat that it was the perfect time for someone like Reagan to be in office... but the same thing would not have happened if for example Carter or Clinton/Gore were in office. Not everyone would have had the, courage (for lack of a better word) to allow the defense budget to reach such a massive number.

	30-10-2003 04:36									#85
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quote: By your definition Hitlers mass murder of Jews wasn't genocide either. Jews are still there, aren't they?

Ah, but the Jews were scattered all over the world.
If the Soviet Union really wanted to exterminate all Lithuanias, I can assure you Saras would not be speaking with us today.

quote: and Lithuanian collaborators.

COMMUNIST LIES!

quote: Tass has a lot of entertainment value.

I try

quote: had he not done that, the ussr would have splintered and fell within the next two decades simply because they would be unable to compete, both with the faster pace of technology and the rise of the internet.

Not to mention the people didn't want it

	30-10-2003 12:24									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Ah, but the Jews were scattered all over the world. If the Soviet Union really wanted to exterminate all Lithuanias, I can assure you Saras would not be speaking with us today.

Maybe they just wanted to exterminate Lithuanians in "Small Lithuania", i.e., Ostpreussen?

SU did try to root out the best Lithuania had - teachers, writers, professors, clerics, successful businessmen and farmers. Not that it was a cakewalk - until 1948 there was a full scale war going on, with SU not controlling large parts of rural and forest, and sometimes, even small urban territory.

	30-10-2003 12:27									#87
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But did they try to exterminate ALL Lithuanians off the face of the Earth?

	30-10-2003 12:28									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar But did they try to exterminate ALL Lithuanians off the face of the Earth?

There were about 100 000 living in Chicago, Il. Those would be tough.

	30-10-2003 12:30									#89
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Hmph. A quick nuke would've taken care of them.

	30-10-2003 12:34									#90
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That would solve a lot of problems. Like the parking space issues in dowtown Moscow.