27-10-2003 22:39									#1
	Is it true that Russian troops looted/raped Berlin mid-evil style for 3 days... Tired of ads?

... after they captured it?

	27-10-2003 22:45									#2
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Only if they ran out of stuff they could carry off that quickly.

	27-10-2003 22:45									#3
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Efraim Sevella, famous Soviet writer, said that yes. But this was forbidden by military officials.

	27-10-2003 22:45									#4
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So it would seem.
Of course, Nazi's were looters, too.

http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/6225-9.cfm

http://www.history-europe.com/The_F...0142002801.html

	27-10-2003 22:48									#5
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yes, why?

	27-10-2003 22:49									#6
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand So it would seem. Of course, Nazi's were looters, too. http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/6225-9.cfm http://www.history-europe.com/The_F...0142002801.html

Of course the nazi's were looters, and they did far worse-just curious if this historical claim was true.

	27-10-2003 22:50									#7
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Of course they did. But this is not to bash Rooskies in general.. I guess they were tired, in war, get victory, in Berlin.. what do you do? You turn them lose, they'll smash the place in half and loot.

	27-10-2003 22:50									#8
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I imagine it is true.
Hell. Look at Tassadar, then tell me Russkie's don't hold a grudge.

	27-10-2003 22:52									#9
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It would surprise me if they didn't loot. Not looking at the flag in their shoulder.

They should have done what we did.. burn every god damn house down, including your own, give no support what so ever for troops that are about to wipe you out.. destroy your lands, poison your water and jam the toilet.
Leave nothing for looting.

	27-10-2003 23:07									#10
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Was there anything to loot in the first place?

	27-10-2003 23:11									#11
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bricks

	27-10-2003 23:13									#12
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The Soviets were especially brutal on the germans when they finally pushed them back. I really can't blame them too much. The world was much more brutal back then (something anti-american posters don't realize when talking about Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo, and Dresden). And the soviet soldiers were trained to hate the Germans with all their heart. And after being betrayed and almost conquered the way they were, well...

	27-10-2003 23:13									#13
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But I don't know if it should be called raping/looting of Berlin. More like victory party that got out of the hands... I wonder what kind of pressures these guys were under, and then suddenly you get to release the pressures, and there's a big city to do it in. That's why there should be 34000000 MPs to control the whole thing, but I bet there wasn't really even resources for that, if they even wanted it. And I bet most soldiers thought, that they are justified to take some. Little booze going on... it'll be a mess for sure, no doubt about it.

	27-10-2003 23:14									#14
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In a book I read about 20-30 years ago about the Dresden bombing, it said that the Soviets were using Mongolian troops in the invasion of Germany, precisely for the purpose of looting and raping. Desdens was full of refugees fleeing these Mongolian troops when it was hit.

Course, I don't know how authoritiative a book it was, since I got it in my high school libary.

	27-10-2003 23:15									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed yes, why?

Octoberfest.

	27-10-2003 23:34									#16
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quote: Octoberfest.

meant it as a question, why is he asking?

	27-10-2003 23:36									#17
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In a book I read about 20-30 years ago about the Dresden bombing, it said that the Soviets were using Mongolian troops in the invasion of Germany, precisely for the purpose of looting and raping. Desdens was full of refugees fleeing these Mongolian troops when it was hit. Course, I don't know how authoritiative a book it was, since I got it in my high school libary.

Not just Mongolian, but Asiatic Siberian troops largely. That was mostly because they weren't in the west in '41 and '42 to get killed and captured like so many of the western Russian troops.

	27-10-2003 23:38									#18
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dirty mongoloids.

	28-10-2003 00:10									#19
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3 days? More like 3 months.

The standard phrase of a Russian soldier towards a German civilian was: Frau, komm!

	28-10-2003 00:16									#20
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As I understand it, all allied troops looted as they went through Germany and Austria, not just the Russians. It is said that the populace didn't mind the Americans so much because they only stole the valuable stuff!

	28-10-2003 00:22									#21
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The soviets raped and looted everywhere they went.

One stunning (eyewitness) story I heard on the radio was from a captive in the 'women-only' concentration camp of Ravensbrück, where many (communist) restince women were sent, and that was liberated by the soviets, who had their will afterwards.

Nobody of the women's 'comrades' back home was willing to hear their stories, since they could 'obviously' not be true

I've also heard eyewitness stories from Germans fleeing eastern-Prussia...not nice.

I was also amazed when I heard that many German POW's didn't return to Germany untill the late 50's. If they ever returned that is.

The history of that war is still very alive in large parts of Europe, and its closer to one then one may think.

	28-10-2003 00:39									#22
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There is a recent history book on this subject - Stalins Hämnd ("Stalin's Revenge") by Swedish Radio journalist Niclas Sennerteg. 400 pages of suffering. I don't know if it's translated to any other language. It does not cover the capture of Berlin, which is covered by Antony Beevor's "Berlin". I'm reading that book right now but haven't come to the aftermath yet.

	28-10-2003 00:50									#23
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quote: The world was much more brutal back then

Then you have more faith than I.

	28-10-2003 00:56									#24
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I have known about this, but I do not remember where I learned about it, probably from history books. But it would be interesting to know whether stories of these atrocities were reported in Western media that the time? I doubt it, because there seems to have been a significant amount of press censorship imposed either by the government or by the media themselves where such attrocities by the "Allied" side were simply not reported.

	28-10-2003 01:01									#25
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It's not excusable, but considering what the Nazis did to the USSR, it's certainly understandable. Twenty to thirty million dead countrymen will make you want revenge.

	28-10-2003 01:03									#26
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How do you loot/rape in a 'mid-evil' style? Is it better to loot in 'late-evil' style or a 'early-evil' style?

	28-10-2003 01:03									#27
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So.. when do we get Karelia back?

	28-10-2003 01:14									#28
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever How do you loot/rape in a 'mid-evil' style? Is it better to loot in 'late-evil' style or a 'early-evil' style?

In the middle ages, when a city was sieged a message was sent to surrender, they had 3 days to comply.

If they didnt surrender, and if the city fell to the siegers, the troops would be allowd to have their will with the city for 3 days.

It was a historical refference.

	28-10-2003 01:15									#29
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quote: Originally posted by germanos The soviets raped and looted everywhere they went. One stunning (eyewitness) story I heard on the radio was from a captive in the 'women-only' concentration camp of Ravensbrück, where many (communist) restince women were sent, and that was liberated by the soviets, who had their will afterwards. Nobody of the women's 'comrades' back home was willing to hear their stories, since they could 'obviously' not be true I've also heard eyewitness stories from Germans fleeing eastern-Prussia...not nice. I was also amazed when I heard that many German POW's didn't return to Germany untill the late 50's. If they ever returned that is. The history of that war is still very alive in large parts of Europe, and its closer to one then one may think.

ISTR from "Barbarossa" written by a fairly conservative Brit historian, that large scale raping and looting by Soviet troops began when they crossed the German border in to East Prussia - IE they did NOT rape and loot in Poland and Czechoslovakia (I dont recall him mentioning Finland or Hungary) though I suppose there were exceptions.

	28-10-2003 01:20									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen In the middle ages, when a city was sieged a message was sent to surrender, they had 3 days to comply. If they didnt surrender, and if the city fell to the siegers, the troops would be allowd to have their will with the city for 3 days. It was a historical refference.

oh, you mean medievil