30-10-2003 12:35									#91
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Or the issues with the Lithuanian-Polish infestation of Eastern Europe.
Once we break your backs (or rather, nuke them) then we will reclaim our territory.

	30-10-2003 12:36									#92
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Be my guest.

	31-10-2003 07:03									#93
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Tassadar, I must have missed the part where Yahweh descended from heavens and told the wayward Russian people that Lithuania will be their homeland forever and forever...

	31-10-2003 07:20									#94
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Although Russians do have a reputation for doing what they're told...

OK, OK, my one quick anti-Russia troll...

In any case, I want a simple answer. Does anyone believe that any rape committed by either the Red Army or the Wehrmacht, or anyone else, was ever justified? Yes or no.

If the answer is "no", then I want the pro-Russians to shut the **** up with their talk about how much harm the Germans did to the Soviet Union. Yes, they did, and German rapes in the Soviet Union were JUST AS unjustified as Soviet rapes in Germany - not one bit more justified, and not one bit less justified.

If the answer is "yes", then you are saying that rape can be justified. And I won't see the need to continue this discussion, because you will have lost all credibility in the eyes of, well, everyone.

So take your pick.

	31-10-2003 07:32									#95
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quote: Tassadar, I must have missed the part where Yahweh descended from heavens and told the wayward Russian people that Lithuania will be their homeland forever and forever...

Don't blame me.

quote: If the answer is "no", then I want the pro-Russians to shut the **** up with their talk about how much harm the Germans did to the Soviet Union. Yes, they did, and German rapes in the Soviet Union were JUST AS unjustified as Soviet rapes in Germany - not one bit more justified, and not one bit less justified.

Alright.
Now can you admit that, from their perspective, it is understandable why they might do that?
If no...Well, you can't "prove" what everyone already knows
If yes, then maybe your not as good a troll as I thought

	31-10-2003 07:37									#96
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No, I can't understand the desire to commit rape. I'm not a criminal.

And I'm not trolling, I'm simply cutting to the heart of the matter.

So, then, you accept that the Red Army's actions were completely unjustified with regards to rape?

	31-10-2003 07:40									#97
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd No, I can't understand the desire to commit rape. I'm not a criminal.

Good. I was afraid for a moment you would stop this troll

quote: So, then, you accept that the Red Army's actions were completely unjustified with regards to rape?

Well yes, obviously. However, I can understand their motivations for doing such things.

	31-10-2003 07:42									#98
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quote: Good. I was afraid for a moment you would stop this troll

So, then, you also accept the assertion that anyone who commits rape is a criminal, and as such, should be prosecuted?

quote: However, I can understand their motivations for doing such things.

We aren't talking about "such things", we are talking about one specific thing - rape. I simply cannot understand ANY motivation or accept ANY excuse.

	31-10-2003 07:46									#99
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd So, then, you also accept the assertion that anyone who commits rape is a criminal, and as such, should be prosecuted?

Of course I do. Being in the Red Army (or any army) really is not an excuse for rape.

quote: We aren't talking about "such things", we are talking about one specific thing - rape. I simply cannot understand ANY motivation or accept ANY excuse.

They were angry. The Germans had come into Russia and raped it in almost every sense of the word.
They wanted to release that anger out on Germany. And, they chose this way. It makes perfect sense to me.

	31-10-2003 07:50									#100
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quote: Of course I do. Being in the Red Army (or any army) really is not an excuse for rape.

So any Red Army soldiers, or any Soviet citizen period, who participated in a rape, should have been held accountable, right?

quote: They were angry. The Germans had come into Russia and raped it in almost every sense of the word. They wanted to release that anger out on Germany. And, they chose this way. It makes perfect sense to me.

This is like saying that if someone comes and burns down your house, it would be perfectly understandable for you to rape his wife.

	31-10-2003 07:56									#101
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd So any Red Army soldiers, or any Soviet citizen period, who participated in a rape, should have been held accountable, right?

Yes. Soviet citizens deserve no special treatment, they should not be able to rape people and got off without a punishment simply because they are Soviets.
And neither do Americans, whether they be normal citizens or...GIs

quote: This is like saying that if someone comes and burns down your house, it would be perfectly understandable for you to rape his wife.

Thats an over-simplification. It's more like saying if one nation burns down another nation, it would be perfectly understandable for you to rape its women

	31-10-2003 08:00									#102
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quote: And neither do Americans, whether they be normal citizens or...GIs

Quite agreed. You can't get me, of all people, on this point.

quote: Thats an over-simplification. It's more like saying if one nation burns down another nation, it would be perfectly understandable for you to rape its women

So in what cases is rape understandable? Only when one nation almost destroys another one?

And by the way, when you make the distinction that rape is understandable in certain cases, you are about half a step away from saying rape is acceptable in certain cases.

	31-10-2003 08:05									#103
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd And by the way, when you make the distinction that rape is understandable in certain cases, you are about half a step away from saying rape is acceptable in certain cases.

How? Criminal psychologists try to understand motivations for crimes all the time...Does this mean they are half a step away from saying criminal behavior is acceptable?
One can't solve problems simply by looking at the criminal and locking him up. You need to understand why it happens, and what generates it, etc etc.

I know a ton of people who have been raped, and quite a few of them are very dear to me. Trust me, I'm NOT going to be going around condoning rape. It is one of the most digusting, vile crimes humans can bestow upon each other.

Hmm....Say your wife is raped. You know who did it. Most husbands will feel an incredible urge to kill the person who did it. This is understanding murder.
But by saying this, do I say murder is condonable? No.

	31-10-2003 08:06									#104
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There is a difference between saying you understand the flawed reasoning leading to the crime and saying that the crime itself was understandable. It seems to me that you are saying the latter, although I could be wrong.

I quite understand the flawed reasoning used by the Red Army (reasoning promoted by the Soviet leadership, BTW), but their crimes still aren't understandable.

	31-10-2003 08:07									#105
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quote: So in what cases is rape understandable? Only when one nation almost destroys another one?

Not only, but amongst...well....uberpatriots it certainly is a foreseeable possibility and when it happens it really is no surprise.
Most rape cases are beyond my grasp. I don't know why, and can't concieve a rational possiblity (thus having to fall on the "mental disorder/evil" line) why someone would just kidnap a person and rape them.
However, if the victim is close to someone whom has harmed the criminal in some way...It makes a little more sense.

	31-10-2003 08:13									#106
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So the question becomes, do you understand the flawed reasoning or is the act itself understandable?

	31-10-2003 08:15									#107
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Ah. Flawed reasoning is what I meant by "Understandable".

	31-10-2003 08:23									#108
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So, given that the reasoning that led to the rapes was flawed, do you also admit that the political indoctrination that led to the flawed reasoning also flawed?

Put another way, did the communist leadership of the Soviet Union bear any responsibility for the results of their indoctrination?

	31-10-2003 08:32									#109
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd So, given that the reasoning that led to the rapes was flawed, do you also admit that the political indoctrination that led to the flawed reasoning also flawed? Put another way, did the communist leadership of the Soviet Union bear any responsibility for the results of their indoctrination?

Yes, the stalinist leadership did/does bear responsibility

(Nice try )

	31-10-2003 08:36									#110
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So, then, it might be said that while hundreds of Nazi war criminals were prosecuted, and Nazis in general ostracized, all Soviet war criminals got off scot-free?

Maybe it's time to pursue rape charges against surviving Red Army vets, not to mention those responsible for Katyn Forest, to name one Soviet wartime atrocity.

	31-10-2003 08:37									#111
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And by the way, you said nothing about the political indoctrination. Was the political indoctrination received by the Red Army morally wrong?

	31-10-2003 08:42									#112
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd And by the way, you said nothing about the political indoctrination. Was the political indoctrination received by the Red Army morally wrong?

quote: Yes, the stalinist leadership did/does bear responsibility (Nice try )

Nice try

quote: Maybe it's time to pursue rape charges against surviving Red Army vets, not to mention those responsible for Katyn Forest, to name one Soviet wartime atrocity.

If we have proof, then go ahead. However, to go after people simply because they were in the Red Army is frivilous and russophobic.

Like you said...I'm not one to be trying to back into an answer of "No", since I pretty strongly believe those whom commit such crimes should be prosecuted if they are indeed guilty.

	31-10-2003 08:47									#113
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I'm not trying to back you into anything. I'm just making the point - or rather, getting you to make it for me - that the Soviets could be just as bad as the Nazis.

	31-10-2003 08:58									#114
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Ah.
Well, I readily admit it. Can you admit the Americans can be just as bad as the Nazis and have been in the past?

	31-10-2003 09:14									#115
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Oh, definitely.

	31-10-2003 09:19									#116
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The problem here is, Floyd is equating understandable with condoning. If you can understand something, even if the reasoning behind it is flawed, then it is understandable. Just because you can understand something, doesn't mean you are saying it's okay.

	31-10-2003 09:49									#117
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I made the distinction between understanding the reasoning, and saying that the act is understandable. Saying that something is understandable, at least to me, gives off the connotation of "justifiable" or "acceptable". Better to say that the reasoning behind the act can be understood, in that it can be understood to be wrong, but that the act itself is completely unacceptable, and that no right-thinking individual would commit the act.

	31-10-2003 12:00									#118
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DF, i tend to agree with you, but you seem manic obsessive at times

	31-10-2003 12:01									#119
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I made the distinction between understanding the reasoning, and saying that the act is understandable. Saying that something is understandable, at least to me, gives off the connotation of "justifiable" or "acceptable". Better to say that the reasoning behind the act can be understood, in that it can be understood to be wrong, but that the act itself is completely unacceptable, and that no right-thinking individual would commit the act.

You remind me of the NAACP (Sorry ). Even though they know exactly what you mean, your forced to use their definitions lest you become a rascist

	31-10-2003 19:39									#120
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Hey, I just wanted you commies to admit that the Soviet Union and Red Army were wrong