01-11-2003 10:37									#1
	The Mac Forum drama - reasonable thread Remove this text

Well, I was fully unaware of the whole Mac Forum drama that happened last week. I have just read the related threads in the Mac forum and in the community forum.

I think Ming was right in his handling of the whole drama, as the Mac forum is supposed to be Civ related, and not tech-related. I fully agree with Locutus' point of view, when he says this action will probably turn the Mac forum in what it was before July (that is, mostly Civ related).

I think it's sad Asher had it completely his way, because it was a real manipulative scheme indeed: magnify the tech-related spam and then call nanny to have it stop (and get away with it completely unscathed). However, Ming did his job in closing the techie threads and disciplining the forum.

However whiny he was on the issue, I think Agathon has a point regarding the Mac discussions in the OT. It is true that Asher trolls these threads systematically, and as such it is impossible for mac users to have a reasonable discussion about their favorite system with such noise. I understand Ming when he says that the pro-Bush don't get to have the anti-Bush silenced. But the anti-Bush don't manage to entirely prevent a serious discussion about Bush policies. I think Agathon has a point when he asks Ming to monitor mac-related threads in the OT in the exact same way as other threads. It's too bad his bitterness didn't make the point more clear

	01-11-2003 10:42									#2
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Is Agathon still gone?

	01-11-2003 10:43									#3
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His profile says he hasn't posted since Ming's thread in the Mac forum, a week ago.

	01-11-2003 10:47									#4
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Who cares? If we aren't able to spam the Dinosaurs forum why should they be able to spam the Mac forum?

	01-11-2003 10:48									#5
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3... 2... 1...

	01-11-2003 10:49									#6
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Contact!

	01-11-2003 10:52									#7
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Who cares? If we aren't able to spam the Dinosaurs forum why should they be able to spam the Mac forum?

Well, I don't think they should be able to spam the Mac forum either. Locutus hinsights are the best in this regard IMHO.

But the fact that techie discussions have moved from the OT to the Mac Forum didn't just come from the hunt for +1. According to Drake and Agathon (who sure were full of hate), the Mac Forum had 1-2 posts a day before Asher started the flame frenzy. It hardly qualifies as a spamming spree.

	01-11-2003 10:53									#8
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Spiffor, you're still missing one piece of the story.

	01-11-2003 11:02									#9
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Spiffor, you're still missing one piece of the story.

ahahahahahahahahaha

	01-11-2003 11:02									#10
	Re: The Mac Forum drama - reasonable thread Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I think Ming was right in his handling of the whole drama, as the Mac forum is supposed to be Civ related, and not tech-related. I fully agree with Locutus' point of view, when he says this action will probably turn the Mac forum in what it was before July (that is, mostly Civ related).

Agree completely. It was the correct course of action.

quote: I think it's sad Asher had it completely his way, because it was a real manipulative scheme indeed: magnify the tech-related spam and then call nanny to have it stop (and get away with it completely unscathed). However, Ming did his job in closing the techie threads and disciplining the forum.

I don't see anything wrong with it. Asher was a) subjected to a lot of abuse from Agathon and Drake and b) was PERFECTLY within his rights to report a rules violation.

quote: However whiny he was on the issue, I think Agathon has a point regarding the Mac discussions in the OT. It is true that Asher trolls these threads systematically, and as such it is impossible for mac users to have a reasonable discussion about their favorite system with such noise. I understand Ming when he says that the pro-Bush don't get to have the anti-Bush silenced. But the anti-Bush don't manage to entirely prevent a serious discussion about Bush policies. I think Agathon has a point when he asks Ming to monitor mac-related threads in the OT in the exact same way as other threads. It's too bad his bitterness didn't make the point more clear

Asher's point is that they AREN'T having a reasonable discussion - it has only one side of the issue and is pretty much circle-jerk (a new term to add to my vocabulary ).

	01-11-2003 11:18									#11
	Re: Re: The Mac Forum drama - reasonable thread Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by skywalker I don't see anything wrong with it. Asher was a) subjected to a lot of abuse from Agathon and Drake and b) was PERFECTLY within his rights to report a rules violation.

He started the flame-fest, didn't he? Don't play with fire and all that jazz.

quote: Originally posted by skywalker Asher's point is that they AREN'T having a reasonable discussion - it has only one side of the issue and is pretty much circle-jerk (a new term to add to my vocabulary ).

Mr Kettle and Mr Pot. Again.

	01-11-2003 11:19									#12
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quote: He started the flame-fest, didn't he? Don't play with fire and all that jazz.

He disagreed with their opinions in a calm and reasonable manner. If he is responsible for them subsequently flaming him...

quote: Mr Kettle and Mr Pot. Again.

So I only participate in circle-jerk threads?

	01-11-2003 11:20									#13
	Re: Re: The Mac Forum drama - reasonable thread Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by skywalker I don't see anything wrong with it. Asher was a) subjected to a lot of abuse from Agathon and Drake and b) was PERFECTLY within his rights to report a rules violation.

Well, Asher was no doubt subject to abuse from Agathon and Drake. The attacks on his boyfriend were very low, and I'd disrespect anybody who treated my SO like they treated his.
But it has nothing to do with Asher's strategy: come to a calm (yet off-topic) forum. Stir trouble and turn the forum into a flaming off-topic inferno. And bring the attention on the off-topicness of said forum. Clearly, he weaseled out his way into breaking the forum Agathon and Drake were used to, for his personal satisfaction rather than Poly's general interest.

quote: Asher's point is that they AREN'T having a reasonable discussion - it has only one side of the issue and is pretty much circle-jerk (a new term to add to my vocabulary ).

I don't know. It may be circle-jerk. But it may be serious conversation about Mac as well. When there is no such obvious "confrontation" (read: trolling) in a mac-related thread, maybe the Mac-users are able to actually have a sensible debate.

	01-11-2003 11:22									#14
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quote: Well, Asher was no doubt subject to abuse from Agathon and Drake. The attacks on his boyfriend were very low, and I'd disrespect anybody who treated my SO like they treated his. But it has nothing to do with Asher's strategy: come to a calm (yet off-topic) forum. Stir trouble and turn the forum into a flaming off-topic inferno. And bring the attention on the off-topicness of said forum. Clearly, he weaseled out his way into breaking the forum Agathon and Drake were used to, for his personal satisfaction rather than Poly's general interest.

It was an on-topic forum. It was calm because no one their disagreed with them. I've looked at several of the closed threads, and he posted reasonable comments and was then flamed. And his motives are irrelevant - he did the right thing.

quote: I don't know. It may be circle-jerk. But it may be serious conversation about Mac as well. When there is no such obvious "confrontation" (read: trolling) in a mac-related thread, maybe the Mac-users are able to actually have a sensible debate.

If their idea of a "serious" conversation is one in which no one disagrees with them...

	01-11-2003 11:23									#15
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: He started the flame-fest, didn't he? Don't play with fire and all that jazz. He disagreed with their opinions in a calm and reasonable manner. If he is responsible for them subsequently flaming him...

Flame-baits don't have to be acrimonious, you know.

quote: Originally posted by skywalker So I only participate in circle-jerk threads?

I was talking about Glonkie complaining about one-sidedness.

	01-11-2003 11:26									#16
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quote: Flame-baits don't have to be acrimonious, you know.

But if they aren't, the flamer is at fault, not the flamee (I'm pretty sure that's not a word ).

quote: I was talking about Glonkie complaining about one-sidedness.

Where did I say anything about Glonkie?

	01-11-2003 11:29									#17
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker But if they aren't, the flamer is at fault, not the flamee (I'm pretty sure that's not a word ).

Somebody who intentionally starting a flamefest isn't at fault?

quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: I was talking about Glonkie complaining about one-sidedness. Where did I say anything about Glonkie?

quote: Asher's point is that they AREN'T having a reasonable discussion - it has only one side of the issue and is pretty much circle-jerk (a new term to add to my vocabulary ).

	01-11-2003 11:30									#18
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I wonder if Ming has realized that he's become his father yet...

Of course, once the cat was out of the bag, he could only do one thing. The blame rests solely on Asher's shoulders. None of this would have happened had he not done that stupid, stupid action.

Whatever. Unlike Asher, I get personal satisfaction and good times out of something a bit more sophisticated than harrasing users of an operating system not my own.

	01-11-2003 11:30									#19
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Asher definately has a future in politics. Nothing can be more satisfying than seeing your "enemies" self-destruct so easily.

PS This whole thread must be helping his ego quite a bit.

	01-11-2003 11:30									#20
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EDIT: replying to Urban Ranger

I don't see the word "Glonkie" anywhere in there.

In fact, I don't know who Glonkie is, other than the vague recollection of seeing him post in the OTF once of twice.

	01-11-2003 11:32									#21
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker I don't see the word "Glonkie" anywhere in there.

Asher is the poster who was formerly known as Glonk.

	01-11-2003 11:33									#22
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When?! I thought he was always Asher. At least I wasn't in the OTF when he was Glonkie.

	01-11-2003 11:34									#23
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quote: Of course, once the cat was out of the bag, he could only do one thing. The blame rests solely on Asher's shoulders. None of this would have happened had he not done that stupid, stupid action.

It is Asher's fault that the other poster's were breaking the rules?

Or perhaps it was Asher's fault for telling the mods? You know, some people *cough*me*cough* actually don't dislike people who report those in BLATANT VIOLATION OF THE RULES.

	01-11-2003 11:37									#24
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As I said at counterglow....It was a master troll whos effects continued to be felt.

Asher

	01-11-2003 11:38									#25
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Tass:
What's your handle at CG?

	01-11-2003 11:40									#26
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The thing is, the mac forum was so small, and so very inactive, that it just never seemed like that big of a deal to me. It would be rare to even see a new post there in a week, sometimes longer. Because of that, I never thought of it as worth reporting, or even as a blatant violation of the rules. You have to remember, one of the guys who worked on the Civ2 official port regularly posted there, providing information and such, and he promoted talk about off-topic mac stuff. He was sort of 'official' and if he was doing it, heck, why not us? Seriously, the idea of it offending "THE OWNERS" (oooooh!) never even occurred to me.

All of which boils down to the fact that Asher may have not done anything against the rules, but he's still really lame.

	01-11-2003 11:43									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Tass: What's your handle at CG?

Comrade Tassadar.
Created just a few moments ago.

	01-11-2003 11:47									#28
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x-posted at CG in response to monolith saying I was a "loser" for doing this and the whole thing was "lame".

quote: You know what I think is lame? Drake and Agathon's repeated (half-dozen or so) attacks on my SO. Agathon ordering me out of the forum for having a rational discussion with people. Having a club-forum with no moderator on a site that even bans club-threads. I did greatly enjoy it, if only because I did get my revenge. And as with all weapons of mass destruction, there was collateral damage. And for that I'm not sorry, since Mac users don't like me to begin with. It's more like two birds with one stone than collateral damage, actually. You may think it is the act of a "loser", but then you'd be forgetting it was Drake and Agathon that threw little hissy fits, insulting the mods, and insulting other peoples' SOs trying to rationalize a forum that clearly broke the rules. A winner is me.

	01-11-2003 11:51									#29
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The simple fact of the matter is the forum only existed so a few major Mac users could have a circle jerk (and yes, this is a very valid analogy) over Apple. Anyone can go and look at the threads and see what I've posted there was entirely reasonable, and I got flamed by the same people continuously because of this.

They seem to have thought the Mac forum was their own little "Club Forum" where they could escape the reality that opposing viewpoints bring. And when my name came up in a search to the Mac forums with Agathon personally insulting me (assuming I wouldn't read the forums), I began to pay closer attention to them and replying to some threads.

It got to the point where Agathon and Drake's behavior was so bad (and they were the heaviest contributers to that forum), and no one was moderating that forum, that I "accidentally" let the mods know about its existence. After all, Agathon's last comment before Ming came was "We need a mod."

Be careful what you wish for.

	01-11-2003 11:51									#30
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quote: Mac users don't like me to begin with. It's more like two birds with one stone than collateral damage, actually.

It seems that the feeling is mutual.

Their attacks on you were low, but not unprovoked.