03-11-2003 06:48									#91
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Ramo Whoever thinks the abolition movement was part of the religious right is a tad bit delusional.

By virtues of their denominations and religious history, and their movement away from their Puritan & Calvinist roots, the Christian churches involved in the abolitionist movement were pretty moderate for their era.

	03-11-2003 06:50									#92
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Yeah, it's not like conservatives are still denying gays fundamental human rights. They'd never do such a thing.

	03-11-2003 07:00									#93
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Ramo Yeah, it's not like conservatives are still denying gays fundamental human rights. They'd never do such a thing.

I wasn't equating liberalism with civil rights. I was referring to the spectrum of different Christian denominations in the US in the first half of the 19th century. They were all relatively conservative, but the abolitionists then were not the denominations (or their antecedents) which are now most heavily associated with modern Christian conservatism as a political movement in the US.

	03-11-2003 07:11									#94
	Put an end to popups!

I was responding to GF.

For the most part I agree with you. But abolitionist churches also typically alligned themselves with the lefty free soil, free labour, free men coalition - the original Fremont era Republican coalition before Lincoln and his protectionist, corporatist policies hijacked the party.

	03-11-2003 07:12									#95
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by MrFun God this is an ignorant statement. The Republican party and the Democratic party went through a political realingment in the 1890s and 1930s, so that today, they are two different parties than they were in the 1850s through 1880s. The Republican party in the mid-nineteenth century was an activist party for civil rights and stronger federal government. The Democratic party in the min-nineteenth century was a white supremacist party and advocated stronger states' rights. To say that these two parties are the same today as they were in the mid-nineteenth century is incredibly naive.

Are you German perchance?

	03-11-2003 07:16									#96
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Ramo Yeah, it's not like conservatives are still denying gays fundamental human rights. They'd never do such a thing.

gays don't have fundamental human rights?

	03-11-2003 07:18									#97
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Let's not kid each other. The primary intent of vouchers is to allow public tax money (most of which is not paid by the parents of school age kids, their tax contributions are only a small part of the per-kid cost) to be diverted to private religiously based schools. The voucher movement sprouted right out of the ashes of the "Committee for Excellence in Education" a religious right group which tried to gain stealth control of public school boards all over the US.

I'm no proponent of religious education, but I do feel that our children (from every social class) do need to have an effective education. In the 1990s three of my co-workers (out of 15) were sending their children to Catholic schools. All of them were middle class people, without huge sums of money to throw away on prestige spending. None of them were Catholic. They simply wanted their children to attend a school that worked, and they had little enough confidence in the public school system that they felt it worth their while to spend their own money to make that happen. I think that the numbers of poorer people who feel the same way are even higher in percentage terms because often their schools are even worse than the mediocrity that we call public education in middle class areas. But people any poorer than my co-workers cannot afford to send their children to other schools.

	03-11-2003 07:19									#98
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: gays don't have fundamental human rights?

Like, in some states, to ****.

	03-11-2003 07:25									#99
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by MrFun Hey moron -- I'm a Democrat and I'm well informed about the history of the Democratic party.

Alright, so you're a well informed moron.

Congratulations.

	03-11-2003 10:34									#100
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Yeah, but AFAIC, ol' Howie should take himself out sooner, rather than later, so we have a chance at a real alternative to Bush.

They'll just nominate Sharpton instead.

	03-11-2003 10:37									#101
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Ask Wesley Clark.

Wasn't he a Republican until a few months ago?

	03-11-2003 10:45									#102
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Abolistionists, aka, the religious right

Actually, the religious left, or center (remember I am a Republican, so the charges of liberals revising history won't stick with me ). They definitely weren't on the right wing of Christianity in America at the time.

quote: Wasn't he a Republican until a few months ago?

No, AFAIK, he never was a Republican. He was always registered Democrat.

--

MtG, which candidate from the Democratic primary (slim pickin' I know) would you back?

	03-11-2003 10:48									#103
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Wasn't he a Republican until a few months ago? No, AFAIK, he never was a Republican. He was always registered Democrat.

My mistake. It was the praise he was giving the President at a time when most Democrats where baying for blood (the tax cut) that confused me.

	03-11-2003 11:03									#104
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: was the praise he was giving the President at a time when most Democrats where baying for blood (the tax cut) that confused me.

He's a good soldier. Support the chief when you are under him.

	03-11-2003 11:08									#105
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Abolistionists, aka, the religious right Actually, the religious left, or center (remember I am a Republican, so the charges of liberals revising history won't stick with me ). They definitely weren't on the right wing of Christianity in America at the time. quote: Wasn't he a Republican until a few months ago? No, AFAIK, he never was a Republican. He was always registered Democrat. -- MtG, which candidate from the Democratic primary (slim pickin' I know) would you back?

Clark, Then Kerry. Ideally a Clark-Kerry ticket, and I'd like to grab Zell Miller for the cabinet, since he's retiring from the Senate, IIRC. I'll tolerate Lieberman in there somewhere, but Clark is my preferred choice by far.

	03-11-2003 11:12									#106
	Put an end to popups!

Ugh... sorry, I just don't like Clark. In the debates I saw he just seemed a little too left (even farther than Dean or Kerry).

I like the rest of what you said. If it was a Kerry-Miller ticket I'd vote for it right away... of course that'll never happen. Zell Miller just endorsed George W. Bush over EVERYONE running in the Dem primary.

	03-11-2003 11:14									#107
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Clark,

Why? He doesn't even have a real idea where he stands on the issue the Dems want to make central to their campaign: Iraq.

	03-11-2003 11:16									#108
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: In the debates I saw he just seemed a little too left (even farther than Dean or Kerry).

How so?

	03-11-2003 11:21									#109
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Well, Ramo, it seems he wants to spend more than Kerry (his $100B 'plan', the Homeland and Economic Security Fund). Both want to repeal the tax cuts on those making over $200,000, but Kerry wants to accomplish the rest of his goals by tax cut incentives. And Clark isn't as pro-NRA as Dean.

	03-11-2003 11:27									#110
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The first quote he made wasn't offensive, to me...and the second one (most recent) is, in context, not bad either. He's just saying that his policies would be good for a broad cross section of American society.

	03-11-2003 11:29									#111
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why? He doesn't even have a real idea where he stands on the issue the Dems want to make central to their campaign: Iraq.

Exactly!

First, to know where you stand, you have to know what you're standing in.

Second, that at least puts him on a par with the Bush administration, because it seems more and more that they don't have a ****ing clue where they stand either.

Third, he's a recently retired O10 lifer with theater command experience. So he doesn't want to go off half cocked, he has professional relationships with the current people there (Sanchez is a former subordinate, and Abizaid a peer), and he knows that there's a hell of a lot of info that none of the candidates are privy to, and that the situation there is fluid and will change from month to month.

Precisely because of his background, he's not likely to be prone to ignorant second guessing like Dean and the others, and he's also not likely to be satisfied making some crystal ball future policy statement on the basis of half-assed or less info.

	03-11-2003 11:30									#112
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

But Imran, IIRC, most of Clark's plan entails corporate welfare and huge increases in law enforcement, not exactly the left's agenda. As for the NRA, hell, lots us radical lefties aren't very fond of gun control.

	03-11-2003 11:33									#113
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: most of Clark's plan entails corporate welfare and huge increases in law enforcement, not exactly the left's agenda.

I consider more government spending more conducive to the theoretical American 'left'. The theoretical American 'right' likes tax cuts.

quote: As for the NRA, hell, lots us radical lefties aren't very fond of gun control.

Who the Hell cares about you radicals?! Not like you matter .

I'm using practical American terms: Left - Democrats, Right - Republicans

	03-11-2003 11:39									#114
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Thing is, those are more properties of the moderate wing of the democratic party. The liberal wing doesn't necessarily see those kinds of policies as attractive.

	03-11-2003 11:44									#115
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: The liberal wing doesn't necessarily see those kinds of policies as attractive.

The liberal wing would rather see targetted tax cuts than more government spending?

Where have you been?

	03-11-2003 11:46									#116
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The liberal wing wants to see the budget spent in totally different ways.

	03-11-2003 11:47									#117
	Suffering from ads?

The liberal wing will back a spender over a tax cutter, that's for sure.

It's silly to assert that a guy that wants to spend more on governmental programs than another guy is more 'right-wing' (when both want balanced budgets)... especially in the American parlance.

	03-11-2003 11:56									#118
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I don't think that the liberal wing would back more spending on the grounds that it's more spending. For instance, I don't think that the liberal wing would back a massive crackdown on abortions. Similarly, I don't think that the liberal wing would back policies like lots more cops and jails and corporate subsidies.

	03-11-2003 12:01									#119
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: I don't think that the liberal wing would back more spending on the grounds that it's more spending.

I think they'd back more government spending in order to boost the economy and pay for health care .

Face it, Clark is more lefty than Kerry .

	03-11-2003 12:10									#120
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I don't think that the liberal wing would back more spending on the grounds that it's more spending. I think they'd back more government spending in order to boost the economy and pay for health care . Face it, Clark is more lefty than Kerry .

Kerry is from the great state of Taxachussettes no? Clark is hardly a lefty. And he definitely a real threat to bush:
Bush dodged service, the service is Clark's career
Bush stands next to Clark, the ladies pick clark
Clark is fairly economically conservative, his social views are liberal.
Bush is an economic cut tax and spender...... normally would be considered lunacy, but some people forget why they are Republican in the first place.