02-11-2003 22:22									#61
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quote: Polls show that the vast majority of the Iraqi people support the American presence.

Actually, more recent polls seems to show that the US is starting to lose support...

	02-11-2003 22:33									#62
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That's not good.

	02-11-2003 22:36									#63
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I guess what I would suggest is that the US start using air bases in the desert, away from population centers so that they can maintain a defensive perimeter wide enough to allow the aircraft time to climb above the range of these missles.

Arming the Shiites looks better all the time.

	02-11-2003 22:39									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I guess what I would suggest is that the US start using air bases in the desert, away from population centers so that they can maintain a defensive perimeter wide enough to allow the aircraft time to climb above the range of these missles.

Why don't we use an aircraft-carrier in the ocean.

	02-11-2003 22:41									#65
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The helos were taking troops out of Iraq.

	02-11-2003 22:43									#66
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Where were they taking them?

	02-11-2003 22:45									#67
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO The parralells to Vietnam are easy to say, but the situation is totally different. In Vietnam you were facing a much larger resistence that was augmented by a national army applying pressure in the north. This was coupled with large support of arms and training by USSR. That is not the case in Iraq. Polls show that the vast majority of the Iraqi people support the American presence. Many of the insurgents are foriegn nationals and not indeginous population. Strong political control is being excersized by the US. The troops enjoy strong support from the American people. There are no areas that attacks are coming from that the troops are being barred from. Any invasion of a country will meet resistence. That does not make it a parralell to Vietnam.

1) The situation is totally different, yet eerily similar. Vietnam was supplied by China mostly. But they (VC) didn't believe they were gonna live forever with allah and 17 virgins either. They (VC) didn't cherish martyrdom, plus, the people making their way to Iraq are the mujahadeen who fought the Russians in Afghanistan. It is almost as if OBL is hunting America as his next big game. Right now, the generals of this war are being created in the streets of Fallujah and Tikrit. Every time they have a success, they learn a great deal, and, they gain a little more momentum.

2) How can you believe a poll taken in a country asking peopel how they feel about the force in town that takes people away at night for being Baathist sympathizers. These are Iraqis we are talking about, not Americans. I bet if there is one thing every Iraqi knows is, "say nice things about the guy in power" Polls in Iraq mean nothing.

3) Just because resistance is being led by foreign nationals, how does that make it any easier? Because they speak a different language. As a poor muslim Iraqi, who would you help, the white Christian guy who brought the war to your country, or the "freedom fighter" who faces the east and prays with you ?

	02-11-2003 22:49									#68
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Probably the freedom-fighter.

	02-11-2003 22:49									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Arming the Shiites looks better all the time.

Not if you want a secular government, I don't want Shiite fundies ruling Iraq. I want a liberal, secular government with a mix of Shiites, Sunnis, and Kurds.

	02-11-2003 22:51									#70
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But they are probably not facing east during prayers...

	02-11-2003 22:54									#71
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What's that got to do with anything?

	02-11-2003 22:59									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin But they are probably not facing east during prayers...

I wasn't sure if it was always east, or towards Mecca (West).... especially since the world is round. I didn't think some one would actually call me on that.... :P

	02-11-2003 23:01									#73
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How many non-Iraqi terrorists have been arrested in Iraq yet?

I ask this, since I have the feeling that this talk of the resistance being led by foreigners and/or al Qaeda is more a guess, or wishfull thinking, than fact.

I'm truely curious. Does anybody have anything solid on these foreigners?

	02-11-2003 23:16									#74
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I would say that if someone is to blame for the situation in Iraq today, it is the CIA and intelligence in general. It seems nobody knows who really is the enemy, and that means that the occupation troops really are good for nothing more than crowd control and being sitting ducks. That is not something that will end the violence, but rather the opposite.

	02-11-2003 23:17									#75
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Yes, some Syrian Nationals were caught or killed.... I believe a Yemenese/Yemenite/Yemeni.... but in all truth, you may be right. Regardless, it is only the next logical step, right?

	02-11-2003 23:30									#76
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quote: Originally posted by NeOmega Yes, some Syrian Nationals were caught or killed.... I believe a Yemenese/Yemenite/Yemeni.... but in all truth, you may be right. Regardless, it is only the next logical step, right?

I don't see why it would be a 'logical' step.

For one, if the iraqi's themselves are making life difficult for the American troops, there is not much need to go there as an al Qaeda operative, you could focus on goals elsewhere.

From the US perpective, if foreigners are the ones causing the troubles in Iraq, it means they are doing a good job, since then the Iraqi's are appeased. In Vietnam and Korea (in the 50's) it has also been romoured Soviets and Chinese 'foreigners' were the ones responsible for the stiff resistance. In both those cases it is clear the nationals themselves were largely responsible for the US losses.

I'm afraid (for the US) that it is the Iraqi's themselves are the ones fighting them, and that foriegners play an insignificant part in it. The US would do wise to acknoledge that, since knowing who your enemy is, is the key to winning a war. Blaming it on outside influence, and thereby more or less saying it is out of their control, could well be sticking your head in the sand.

	02-11-2003 23:37									#77
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Iraqis know their home best, foreign nationals may be a little confused. However, Saddam could have hired a good group of mercenaries to teach the tactics used in Afghanistan.

Very strange, I had always assumed it was a mix of foreign nationals and Iraqis. I really don't see Iraqis doing the suicide bombings, as they were a more secular ISlam, but losing a family member has driven others to such bombings....

	02-11-2003 23:40									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Hurricane I would say that if someone is to blame for the situation in Iraq today, it is the CIA and intelligence in general. It seems nobody knows who really is the enemy, and that means that the occupation troops really are good for nothing more than crowd control and being sitting ducks. That is not something that will end the violence, but rather the opposite.

No, the President is in charge of the CIA. And the CIA was against this war from the onset. Now there is a political feud brewing between the few.

It is kind of sad, but I feel like this presidency is the worst bumbled mess ever, and that George Bush actually knows he is a failure at leadership, but still doesn't have the guts to take at least a little responsibility.

And the navy didn't choose the Mission Accomplished banner either.

	02-11-2003 23:46									#79
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Yes, i admit the suicide bombers are a strange factor in the equation.

However, the bulk of the attacks (as the shooting of this chopper) do not involve suicide tactics.

	02-11-2003 23:47									#80
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem They were going on R&R. I didn't know Chinooks were still being used. How old was the chopper? (Not that that was a factor.)

The CH-47 A and B versions have been upgraded to D and E with additional upgrades (NOE, night vision gear, etc.) for the MH-47D for SOF use. The CH-47C is now (or just recently has been) upgraded to the F version.

They're still the standard medium lift helo for the Army, but used primarily by Airborne/Air Assault and Corps level units.

My brother's unit in 'Nam, 196th AHSC (Flipper) was one of the first units (in 1966) to go to CH-47s, adding two platoons of -47As to a platoon of Huey slicks and a platoon of Huey gunships. The unit still exists as C Co., 159th Avn. Regt., attached to XVIII Airborne Corps, and is now exclusively a CH-47 unit. A lot of those Vietnam era birds are still flying - approximately 1/3 of them are still around, in the upgraded versions. The rest date from the mid to late 70's.

	02-11-2003 23:49									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Not if you want a secular government, I don't want Shiite fundies ruling Iraq. I want a liberal, secular government with a mix of Shiites, Sunnis, and Kurds.

Glad you've volunteered to go over there and do something about it.

	02-11-2003 23:51									#82
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quote: Originally posted by BKWM Why don't we use an aircraft-carrier in the ocean.

too far way. aircraft carriers aren't designed for chopper- and no army pukes are allowed

	02-11-2003 23:51									#83
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Is it just me, or does the idea to arm one group to fight all the others seem to be a really, really bad idea?

	02-11-2003 23:53									#84
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It's not just you.

	02-11-2003 23:54									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Helicopters are deathtraps. Don't rely too heavily on them. Oh, and I bet the weapon used was an RPG. It always is.

An RPG can't hit a helo except at very close range, and if the helo is moving slowly, ie approching or departing an LZ. Most likely, multiple SA-7Bs or SA-14s.

	02-11-2003 23:55									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident too far way. aircraft carriers aren't designed for chopper- and no army pukes are allowed

Yeah, you squids get all hot and bothered and can't contain yourselves whenever you see real military.

	02-11-2003 23:56									#87
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What strikes me about Iraq is it is the center of the middle east, and is now the ultimate showdown for terrorism.

Sometimes I think that is good. It is best to draw all the terrorists to one place (Iraq) and then kill them that way. Why chase the terrorists all the way around the world? It is much easier to draw them to one lawless country that is flat (unlike Afghanistan) and take the terrorists out that way.

The plan would be successful if it weren't for two things. The first is U.S. intelligence is lacking, and we can't seem to find any terrorists in Iraq. They are operating with impunity.

and second. Instead of slowly whittling away at the number of terrorists in the world as I had hoped, we may be creating thousands more.

But I still say it is better that these people focus their attacks on the U.S. military rather than american citizens in the U.S. or abroad. I just wish we could make better progress towards finding the terrorists when they enter Iraq.

	02-11-2003 23:58									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Is it just me, or does the idea to arm one group to fight all the others seem to be a really, really bad idea?

This is why I've been saying for a while we need to put in two more divisions into the Sunni triangle, and take it apart one city and one area at a time. When we concentrated an entire brigade in Fallujah, the *******s quited down. Let's see what they do with two full divisions taking the town apart, uncovering these weapons caches, stripping them bare of unauthorized weapons, and arresting and removing every ******* we find.

Then secure the town, and move on to the next one.

	03-11-2003 00:01									#89
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... and if they are not so lucky, they'll just pop up again as soon as the US Army leaves.

	03-11-2003 00:02									#90
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A sad day for the families .. all this politics means little to them now.

However, we must not forget that these guys gave their lives to rid us of an evil dictator. Don't forget in haste, that not all Iraqi's are so anti-American. This crime occured right at the heart of the Sunni Triangle, the area most likely to support Sadam. If the US pulled out, what then for the majority Shia people ? What for the Kurds ?? more than 2/3 of the country are not arabic in decent. Not all of the Arab Sunni's are unhappy with Sadams demise.

Basically, don't let these guys die in vain by blaming the Iraqi people. These murderers are not patriotic men standing up for their country... They are people who have lost out because Sadam has gone, and they are resorting to what they only know ... Death and destruction.

The people of Iraq have suffered for many years under this barbarity .. and they have survived. Are American's so weak that they cannot cope with this for more than 6 months ??? Absolultly not ..

Stick with it guys, your doing a job no other country had the balls to do ..