05-11-2003 15:50									#31
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I think I agree, (everybody is better off without welfare, except seriously ill and disabled people!! I don't believe helping those are part of the libertarian agenda?) I also have doubts regarding legalizing drugs. Drugs are dangerous to your body and you should seek HELP instead of the "I'm free to use my body" BS. No offence to a certain person in this thread.

	05-11-2003 17:01									#32
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quote: I think I agree, (everybody is better off without welfare, except seriously ill and disabled people!! I don't believe helping those are part of the libertarian agenda?)

Sure, freedom includes helping those you believe are worthy of help, just don't steal from others.

quote: I also have doubts regarding legalizing drugs. Drugs are dangerous to your body and you should seek HELP instead of the "I'm free to use my body" BS. No offence to a certain person in this thread.

You think the state (politicians) owns your body? Would you maintain that view if the state was banning products you like to use? Calling other people's freedom "BS" and adding "no offense" is... BS, offense intended. Oh, and drugs are dangerous? No, over-indulging can be dangerous, but I see nothing inherently dangerous about drugs. Now, if you say some people can't help but over-indulge, that's true. And using them as an excuse to "punish" everyone else who doesn't over-indulge is immoral. It's called punishing the innocent because of the "guilty" and you sure wouldn't extoll the virtues of such a principle if you were punished because I committed murder...

	05-11-2003 19:40									#33
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Freedom is over-rated. It's completely useless if you don't have enough to eat. The libertarians seem to believe that it's better to be starving and 'moral', than fed and 'immoral'. How stupid can you get? Even heaven and hell are more convincing than this nonsense.

	05-11-2003 19:43									#34
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Absolutely Sandman!

	05-11-2003 20:05									#35
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socially, I'm a libertarian... but that's about it... I realize that without a powerful government regulating the economy, we would regress back to the 19th century where robber barons and tycoons exploited and fleeced the people.

And I also have a conscious, meaning that I think sick people should get health care, regardless of their ability to pay... and that all children should get education, regardless of their parent's ability to pay. That's called society.

On the social stuff, I'm with libertarians. But with the economic stuff... nope... they're as dopey as commies when it comes to that stuff.

	05-11-2003 20:25									#36
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Anyone who believes it is right to help those less fortunate than themselves and protect them from oppression is not a libertarian. I am not a libertarian.

	05-11-2003 20:40									#37
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I have always found the libertarian position self-contradictory. How could one has his freedom without a government keeping others from running him over?

	05-11-2003 20:45									#38
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Being a libertarian basically seems to mean you are an anarchist.

Everyone has absolute freedom to do anything.

	05-11-2003 20:52									#39
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You guys are barking up the wrong tree. Libertarians and Anarchists are totally different.

	05-11-2003 20:56									#40
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every individual should be a librarian at heart

	05-11-2003 21:02									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia You guys are barking up the wrong tree. Libertarians and Anarchists are totally different.

You mean libertarians are advocating some kind of rules that people have to live by? I DEMAND MY FREEDOM!!!

	05-11-2003 21:05									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia You guys are barking up the wrong tree. Libertarians and Anarchists are totally different.

I agree. At least anarchists are consistent.

	05-11-2003 21:25									#43
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH You mean libertarians are advocating some kind of rules that people have to live by? I DEMAND MY FREEDOM!!!

Libertarians believe in rules. For one, they don't allow you the freedom to hurt others.

	05-11-2003 21:27									#44
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Who's going to stop me?

	05-11-2003 21:31									#45
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Ok, say I kill a poor guy a tramp/bum. For no reason, just for fun.

He's got no family, there are a few people who know him but they haven't got any money either only what they can beg/steal. So who's going to pay a small fortune for police call out fees, trial and many years of inprisonment. Or do we just have summary justice meeted out by 200AD style judges? In which case who pays for them?

	05-11-2003 21:31									#46
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At heart, everyone wants power... Libertarianism prevents such a thing.

So, you are wrong... sorry.

	05-11-2003 21:33									#47
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Ok, say I kill a poor guy a tramp/bum. For no reason, just for fun. He's got no family, there are a few people who know him but they haven't got any money either only what they can beg/steal. So who's going to pay a small fortune for police call out fees, trial and many years of inprisonment. Or do we just have summary justice meeted out by 200AD style judges? In which case who pays for them?

Libertarians believe in having a police force. I don't see why this case would be treated any differently in a libertarian world.

	05-11-2003 21:34									#48
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Libertarianism seems to give all power to rich people, and remove everything from the poor.

	05-11-2003 21:37									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Libertarians believe in having a police force. I don't see why this case would be treated any differently in a libertarian world.

What, they believe in making everyone pay for a police force? You'd need a government for that, and taxes! What if I want to pay for my own protection? You can't make me contribute, it's immoral!

	05-11-2003 21:47									#50
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH What, they believe in making everyone pay for a police force? You'd need a government for that, and taxes! What if I want to pay for my own protection? You can't make me contribute, it's immoral!

That's what an anarchist would say. Libertarians still believe in government, just limited government. Basically the government should be limited to a police force, a military, and a justice system.

	05-11-2003 21:52									#51
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The libertarian argument sounds quite persuading and indeed should be applied in some areas (e.g. when it comes to victimless crimes, such as drug-taking). Yet I prefer to live in a community than every man for himself. Society is crumbling around us due to this sort of philosophy.

We need to re-instate community spirit. The problem is, people only seem to feel a sense of community when they are surrounded by people perceived as similar. And as we know, multi"culturalism" goes against this. Good community is difficult, if not impossible to achieve in multicultural societies.

So if you are in favour of multiculturalism, it also follows that you have strong tendencies towards libertarianism.

	05-11-2003 21:53									#52
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IMO Libertarians are the easiest to deal with, as I see their views more to the right than to the left.

The problem is, however, that they are the communist of the right in that they rely too much on individual/coorprate contributions to society. While this idea is nice it needs to be legislated, because man is inately greedy.

So, while you can say that Libertarianism is a promoter of freedom I say they promote anarchy. Laissez-faire politics is one thing Libertarianism is another, and, it is something that I am not at heart.

	05-11-2003 21:54									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia That's what an anarchist would say. Libertarians still believe in government, just limited government. Basically the government should be limited to a police force, a military, and a justice system.

And obviously you need to add tax collection (general treasury) to that as well and some kind of electoral system, so that the people can choose who spends their money on defence and justice.

How do you deal with other governments? You might believe in free trade etc but they probably won't, also wars are expensive so best to avoid those as much as possible. That'll require some kind of diplomatic section to the government.

You're going to need some way for people to find out what the government are doing as well. That'd be some kind of press corps.

	05-11-2003 21:55									#54
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I'm with Mike

	05-11-2003 21:57									#55
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Shocking isn't it.

Basically this libertarian ideal sounds like something out of a hellish cyberpunk novel.

	05-11-2003 22:01									#56
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Anarchists have a tendency to become libertyants as they get older.
Presumably that's because they have more money. Libertyranny benefits those who have more wealth.

	05-11-2003 22:07									#57
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH And obviously you need to add tax collection (general treasury) to that as well and some kind of electoral system, so that the people can choose who spends their money on defence and justice. How do you deal with other governments? You might believe in free trade etc but they probably won't, also wars are expensive so best to avoid those as much as possible. That'll require some kind of diplomatic section to the government. You're going to need some way for people to find out what the government are doing as well. That'd be some kind of press corps.

I think you still have the wrong idea about how things work under a libertarian government. Perhaps 'libertarian' means something different in europe. Have a look at the American libertarian website if you're curious.

I can't say I agree with everything the libertarians propose, but mostly I do.

	05-11-2003 22:08									#58
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Part of the problem is how you define 'hurting someone'. Things like murder and assault are fine, but what about blackmail? Probably fine too, but is it not my right to make money from someone else's misfortune?

If I am born into a poor family who cannot afford to pay my education is that my fault? Why should I be penalised? Is my freedom not removed by other people having a better education, since I won't have such a high standard of living?

If I deny someone a job because of the colour of their skin, am I not hurting them? If you make me hire them, are you not restricting my freedom?

We all have to make compromises to live in a comunal society - but what if I don't want to compromise? What if I want to live the life of a native American and hunt wild buffalo and live in a tent? Are you not impeding my freedom by saying I cannot? Is your insistence in the existence of private property not impeding my freedom?

Almost every facet of government which exists in our society today was put there in oder (in principle) to protect someone's freedoms. While some of them may have gone over the top, are you not removing freedom by taking them away?

	05-11-2003 22:09									#59
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I think you guys need to talk to a true libertarian if you want answers to these questions. Someone like David Floyd or Berzerker.

	05-11-2003 22:15									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I think you still have the wrong idea about how things work under a libertarian government. Perhaps 'libertarian' means something different in europe. Have a look at the American libertarian website if you're curious. I can't say I agree with everything the libertarians propose, but mostly I do.

It seems a very American concept. I've never heard the term 'libertarian' used other than in the context of a discussion of US politics.

As Rogon Josh said, us Europeans believe our governments are protecting the freedoms of the majority. If the rich few feel hard done by, oh well, at least they are rich!