05-11-2003 22:20									#61
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Do the Libertarian dance!

Do the Communist dance!



Libertarians do it alone.

Commies do it in groups.


Yup, us Communists really know how to Party.

	05-11-2003 22:20									#62
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH It seems a very American concept. I've never heard the term 'libertarian' used other than in the context of a discussion of US politics. As Rogon Josh said, us Europeans believe our governments are protecting the freedoms of the majority. If the rich few feel hard done by, oh well, at least they are rich!

Well, I do think everyone should be entitled to keep the same percentage of what they earn as anyone else, so I think a flat tax is the least that can be done to make things more fair. Also what the govt defines as 'rich' is not necessarily what you and I would think of as rich.

	05-11-2003 22:24									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Well, I do think everyone should be entitled to keep the same percentage of what they earn as anyone else, so I think a flat tax is the least that can be done to make things more fair. Also what the govt defines as 'rich' is not necessarily what you and I would think of as rich.

Well in that case how's about making that apple at the market cost the same percentage of a rich man's income as a poor man's?

	05-11-2003 22:26									#64
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That doesn't account for the fact that a person who starts in a rich family has life a lot easier than a person who starts in a poor background.

That's not fair either. How do you address that?

	05-11-2003 22:27									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Well in that case how's about making that apple at the market cost the same percentage of a rich man's income as a poor man's?

Why should the rich man have to pay more? If he didn't commit any crimes to achieve his success, why should he be penalized?

	05-11-2003 22:29									#66
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Who says he achieved his success? He probably got good schools, good education, grew up with a 'good' accent and knowing other well off people. He got a better job and had a great start.

	05-11-2003 22:30									#67
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH That doesn't account for the fact that a person who starts in a rich family has life a lot easier than a person who starts in a poor background. That's not fair either. How do you address that?

I don't think it's unfair for parents to be allowed to help their children financially.

	05-11-2003 22:32									#68
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Who says he achieved his success? He probably got good schools, good education, grew up with a 'good' accent and knowing other well off people. He got a better job and had a great start.

This is a very well beaten path on this forum...in fact I think it may have become a major interstate freeway by now. Are you saying you want to go for a drive?

	05-11-2003 22:46									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Why should the rich man have to pay more? If he didn't commit any crimes to achieve his success, why should he be penalized?

Why shift more of the tax burden to the poor guy? Why should he be penalized?

Answer my question and I'll have answered yours.

Bonus quiz: Find a poor person (non-student) who actually comprehends libertarianism and supports it, and maybe I'll take it seriously.

	05-11-2003 22:57									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Why shift more of the tax burden to the poor guy? Why should he be penalized?

He isn't being penalized. He pays the same for his apple as everyone else. If everyone pays the same percentage of tax then everyone's burden is the same.

quote: Bonus quiz: Find a poor person (non-student) who actually comprehends libertarianism and supports it, and maybe I'll take it seriously.

Why do you rate the opinions of the poor and uneducated so highly?

	05-11-2003 23:26									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia If everyone pays the same percentage of tax then everyone's burden is the same.

Everyone's burdern shouldn't be the same. Some folks benefit much, much more from society and government, and should therefore pay more to maintain it.

	05-11-2003 23:46									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Freedom is over-rated. It's completely useless if you don't have enough to eat. The libertarians seem to believe that it's better to be starving and 'moral', than fed and 'immoral'. How stupid can you get? Even heaven and hell are more convincing than this nonsense.

That is just a dumb, baseless comment.

	05-11-2003 23:49									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Bonus quiz: Find a poor person (non-student) who actually comprehends libertarianism and supports it, and maybe I'll take it seriously.

Me: I make roughly 9,000 a year on good years.

I do not have the privilage of having my education paid for by my parents..... allthough they had enough money to save for my education, they chose to spend it on other things, like my girlfriend's parents, and like a lot of kids I know.

As far as "comprehending" libertariansim, I was my county party chair for 6 months.

	05-11-2003 23:51									#74
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Who says he achieved his success? He probably got good schools, good education, grew up with a 'good' accent and knowing other well off people. He got a better job and had a great start.

I agree, that is very possible, but where does this good life come from? Take a close look and you'll see that alot, if not most of them, come from useless jobs created by politicians to gain a solid backbone for their party.

	06-11-2003 00:44									#75
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Everyone's burdern shouldn't be the same. Some folks benefit much, much more from society and government, and should therefore pay more to maintain it.

Rich folks don't get that way because of the government.

	06-11-2003 00:45									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Rich folks don't get that way because of the government.

True 'nuff. They are born that way. However, if there was no government, they wouldn't be rich. They'd be robbed.

	06-11-2003 00:50									#77
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quote: However, if there was no government, they wouldn't be rich. They'd be robbed.

robbed: the forceful taking of ones income for the use of another.

taxes: the forceful taking of ones income for the use of another.

	06-11-2003 00:52									#78
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara True 'nuff. They are born that way.

Not true. The vast majority of the rich in America didn't start out that way.

quote: However, if there was no government, they wouldn't be rich. They'd be robbed.

Somehow I get the feeling that that is something you'd like to see happen.

	06-11-2003 01:03									#79
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Well by definition if one sees oneself as an individual, and the outside world composed of individuals, then you have the main elements of libertarianism in place!!

	06-11-2003 01:18									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia This is a very well beaten path on this forum...in fact I think it may have become a major interstate freeway by now. Are you saying you want to go for a drive?

Nah, I've never been in the libertarian threads before other than briefly. The Libertarian point of view is so selfish, alien and annoying it makes me angry very quickly and I leave.

	06-11-2003 01:29									#81
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH It seems a very American concept. I've never heard the term 'libertarian' used other than in the context of a discussion of US politics.

Absolutely. A large section of their argument is based on fallacious appeals to authority and nationalism, asserting that the American constitution and the Founding Fathers 'really' wanted the US to be libertarian. As if they actually matter.

quote: Originally posted by NeOmega That is just a dumb, baseless comment.

How so? Freedom is only worth something if satisfies my needs and desires. It is a means to an end, nothing more.

	06-11-2003 01:32									#82
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Nah, I've never been in the libertarian threads before other than briefly. The Libertarian point of view is so selfish, alien and annoying it makes me angry very quickly and I leave.

Selfish? Sorry, but I don't think wanting to help others with someone else's money is particularly generous.

	06-11-2003 01:32									#83
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The world of the founding fathers was very different to the world of today.

	06-11-2003 01:36									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Selfish? Sorry, but I don't think wanting to help others with someone else's money is particularly generous.

I'm a tax payer, it's my money.

	06-11-2003 01:40									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I don't think it's unfair for parents to be allowed to help their children financially.

I can't believe you took 15 words to say "Meritocracies? Pah!". Bloody timewaster.

	06-11-2003 01:42									#86
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Cali:

	06-11-2003 01:47									#87
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@ Che

	06-11-2003 01:52									#88
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Pay yer taxes and stop moaning, yer big girl's blouses.

	06-11-2003 03:37									#89
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quote: Well in that case how's about making that apple at the market cost the same percentage of a rich man's income as a poor man's?

Assuming your apple on the market is an analogy for all goods..?

Because then there'd be no incentive at all to create wealth. And creating wealth for yourself is by no means a zero-sum game, or even necessarily a game where others need to pay for your benefit.

	06-11-2003 03:43									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Sure, freedom includes helping those you believe are worthy of help, just don't steal from others.

We must also make sure that this help will be uniformly handed out, with exactly the same amount each month. I would like to see how this would be guaranteed by charity.

quote: You think the state (politicians) owns your body? Would you maintain that view if the state was banning products you like to use? Calling other people's freedom "BS" and adding "no offense" is... BS, offense intended. Oh, and drugs are dangerous? No, over-indulging can be dangerous, but I see nothing inherently dangerous about drugs. Now, if you say some people can't help but over-indulge, that's true. And using them as an excuse to "punish" everyone else who doesn't over-indulge is immoral. It's called punishing the innocent because of the "guilty" and you sure wouldn't extoll the virtues of such a principle if you were punished because I committed murder...

Why should anyone be punished? And why should anyone use drugs at all? It provides an unnatural and possibly harmful escapism and the two substitutes are much better:
1). Medical attention with therapy and possibly medication treatment from a physician who knows exactly what different drugs will help you.
2. ) Getting a controlled high with nice people in a bar and perhaps alcohol. Hypocrite, why alcohol and not "softer" drugs you say? Because "soft drugs" leads to "hard drugs", whilst alcohol is many times less likely and we have to draw the line somewhere. Believe me, I've seen my best friends been sucked in to this pile of **** and hearing your friend tell you "I have shitloads of fun!!!" while his swollen, black and scared eyes are telling you a totally different story is still darn creepy.