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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:31
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Would someone like to take a shot a a draft contract with GoW?
Aside from that being an agreed next step in the process, from a proactive diplo standpoint it is clear to me that we need to drive the situation and our relationship with GoW... so let's put a document in front of them.
Let me say something else, but something that also provides an opportunity:
A malaise has beset this game. We know why, no need to go into that.
Fine.
Those of you lurking... JUMP IN.
We know about production, military, the politicking which has been our flaw...
There is now another element: Energy.
C'mon, does know one else see what I am doing with GoW?
BANG BANG BANG. Can't escape, must succumb.
And, in the process, if I (and CH and OPD, to give credit where it's due) am successful, we are going to pull off an AMAZING move.
Read the chats. CH said it well, everything we know is about to beating the AI. This is about beating players! We did it once before, in an AI-semblant face off... this one is a million times more difficult. Arranging this deal with GoW, and then executing, will certainly be the most impressive maneuver in which I've been involved.
Bedtime for me... to dream of the dismantlement of ND.
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Cort Haus
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London
Apr 2002
time: 05:31
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I've studied the contract with RP (thanks for the link, Deepo) and reckon there are plenty of clauses in there which give us the flexibility of interpretation we need to proceed on our desired path at this time. It also gives our position more credibility with GoW.
The 'secrecy' only refers to specifics, not the existence of such a treaty. As the second clause in the contract talks happily about artillery-swapping I don't think we want to reveal any specifics either.
For the draft that Theseus mentioned, I think we need to start with a skeletal framework covering all the points before micromanaging any detail. Maybe the agenda points that were used for the chats could be the starting point.
On the team energy - it's a shame it's so quiet around here, and I'm quite surprised at the inactivity at such a critical and pivotal stage of the game. However, if people have RL commitments or are fed up, or want to play C3C that's their decision and I accept it.
I just worry a little that with so few of us making input at this time that some folks will end up feeling alienated from whatever decisions are made - and we're only trying to turn the world upside-down at the moment. To which I can only answer that a team is only as good as its active membership - and if people don't speak and do things they won't influence the teams actions.
Stormians, amazing steps have so far been made with a bold plan that seemed so far out when first floated as to seem like a stab in the dark. There's a lot more work to be done. If just six of us could put in the energy that Theseus has we can easily pull it off. With less, it can still be pulled off, though the activists will have to shoulder a heavy load. Arise, Stormians, and smell the coffee!
----------------------------
Time for a funny quote :
"Today is not a day for soundbites, but I feel the hand of history on our shoulder"
(Tony Blair at Dublin Castle on the'Good Friday Agreement'.)
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Cort Haus
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London
Apr 2002
time: 05:31
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FYI - here are the article items in the RP treaty. We might want to consider this in part for a model for the GoW treaty. Or not. An Alternative approach would be to build a new structure based on the priorities of the intended GoW agreement.
Article I - Non-Aggression
Article II - Sharing of Luxuries
Article III - Partnership in Technological Research
Article IV - Wonders of the World
Article V - Mutual Protection and Military Alliance
Article VI - Exchange of Territory
Article VII - Additional Agreements
Article VIII - Ratification
Article IX - Ammendments
Last edited by Cort Haus on 16-11-2003 at 20:07
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Cort Haus
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London
Apr 2002
time: 05:31
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Both sides have elements who profoundly distrust the other - and both sides have floated security devices that the other side finds hard to accept.
GoW are seeking a foothold on Stormia as an insurance policy against a GS backstab, and GS have sought some up-front tech for their insurance against a GoW BS.
Neither side like the other's idea - so maybe the ideas can be traded against each other. Another angle for us on the tech issue - we can offer them equivalent payments in tech later on , once we've caught up and can excercise some economic power.
Vulture posted the following argument against the GoW beach-head on Stormia which we could perhaps relay to GoW in some form, as they sent us lists of problems from their PoV.
quote:
As for a beach head on Stormia, I'm very much against that. It would put GoW in too strong a position relative to us, militarily. If the murder of ND goes ahead, we end up with an empire more or les equally split on two areas of land (okay, land on Bob may be more scarce than that). GoW would have their land in a single mass. From this point on, they either have 3 move attackers (Riders, Cavalry) or railroads, so they can move forces internally with great speed. Or forces have to be split between two essentially isolated areas - naval transport will be slow relative to GoWs mobility, and even a reasonable sized navy on their part could make shipping hazardous (even if 3/4 transports make it across, we are still losing a lot of troops for very little investment by GoW). True, they have to worry about having to defend a land border, but we have to worry about defending two seperate areas. A beach-head city in the north just gives them even more of a threat (if they get a one turn crossing, we won't even be able to see their ships moving, so we won't know where their troops are massing). Not a good idea from our point of view.
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Last edited by Cort Haus on 17-11-2003 at 00:45
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Cort Haus
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London
Apr 2002
time: 05:31
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Theseus is right to suggest that the best long-term arrangement concievable with regard to RP is for them to be a productive third core in the 'Grand Alliance' and active partner in the coming struggles.
This vision is, of course, not currently in line with RP/GoW perceptions of each other. They currently wish to destroy each other, so that long term vision can only be realised after a gradual reconciliation, and frankly, a fundamental rethink by RP with regard to their, er, religious fundamentalism, and a contractual obligation by either side to drop their historical grievances. GoW will also take some persuasion that their nemesis is no longer a threat to them
GoW claim that RP were a major PITA as neighbours, who thought they were playing the AI, and would not accept legitimate aspirations of other teams. They also claim that RP will forever plot an scheme to harm GoW, and should never be allowed any independent power.
Here's what I'd like to do with RP:
Install them securely in North Stormia, complete with capital - perhaps getting them to build markets / courthouses/ harbours. After xx turns return them to Spain, to whichever cities are deemed appropriate, during which time GoW are assured that no significant military is being built, and we might receive those Stormian cities returning some production.
Meanwhile work on RP to see their future as a productive and prosperous part of what intends to be an ultimately victorious alliance. We can offer them a stake in the end-game if they step out of their vengeful mindset, and a warning that moving to destabilise our alliance would signal the end of our obligation to them, and GoW would love to do the final deed. If they do misbehave some of us might wish to take appropriate punitive measures ourselves.
At some point we have to break the good news to RP that we have a way to assure their future - which to an extent would be in their hands, albeit on our terms.
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Cort Haus
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London
Apr 2002
time: 05:31
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There are gaps, and there are sections which sound more like a negotiating position than an agreed one, (because there isn't an agreed one), and sections which are possibly nonsense, but it is an attempt at a start of a draft - or perhaps a start of an attempt at a draft.
This is really going to need some feedback - please.
{edit: Section Numbers added}
quote:
I. Objective
1. The two nations of Gathering Storm and Glory of War, whose sovereign interests have until recently been opposed in a titanic struggle for balance of power on the continent of Bob, have come to recognise that the stalemate in the Second Bobian War can serve the interests of neither side.
2. The source of the clash of interests - GS's MPP defense of Spain and GoW's contract to remove the RP Civ from Spanish soil must be honourably resolved.
3. A realignment of the balance of power is understood by both sides to be their only realistic chance of victory, with the ultimate need of both sides being to have enough productive land and access to resources to be able to eventually compete with the power to the west, Lego, enjoying a large productive continent to itself, and unimpeded in its economic development thus-far by conflict.
4. The primary obstacle to the aspirations of both GoW and GS, however, is recognised to be the Bobian power of Neu Demogyptia. This treaty joins the nations of Glory of War and Gathering Storm together in an alliance to remove Neu Demogyptia from the game.
II. Honouring existing contractual obligations
1. GS respects existing contract between GoW and ND requiring RP to be removed from the continent of Bob.
2. GoW respects existing alliance contract between GS and RP including Mutual Protection.
3. GS to clarify to RP that their continued protection and alliance with GS is dependent on RP making and maintaining peace with GoW as required by GS.
4. RP and GoW to mutually end all hostile and destructive intent towards the other party.
III. Conclusion of hostilities between GoW and GS
1. All Roleplay cities on Bob to be transferred to GS.
2. GS transfer selected cities on N.Stormia to RP.
3. Peace offered and accepted between all parties.
IV. Payment for Contract
1. Delivering the removal of RP from Bob, and enabling GoW to fulfil their existing contract with ND is seen as part payment from GS to GoW against the GS contract with GoW to eliminate ND from the game.
2. Agreement on land rights to make GoW the dominant landowner on Bob upon eventual defeat of ND
3. Allied participation between GS and GoW to defeat ND, with GoW taking the lion's share of the territorial spoils - giving them a large contiguous portion of Bob as far south as the jungle - would be seen as a substantial balance of the payment.
4. GS is also able, in the medium and long tem, to deliver a majority portion of the overall research effort to also constitute a portion of the net payment.
V. Envisioned Map and border agreements
- to be determined
VI. Technology
1. At the time of treaty, GS lag behind GoW in tech, but as soon as they are level, they will be able to contribute strongly to a shared, co-ordinated research program.
2. GS are have partially researched Invention, but will need the remainder of that technology and Gunpowder to (a) be aware of the location of Saltpeter deposits, (b) deliver Musketmen to the battlefield, and (c) start contributing to a joint research program.
VII. Luxuries
1. Both parties to share available luxuries with each other as far as is reasonably possible.
VIII. Strategic Resources
1. Ideally, full access by both parties should be arranged to all necessary resources - preferably under full urban control, but through trade if necessary.
2. In case of insufficient access to enough of each resource, parties with sole access should co-operate with temporary trade arrangements to allow the other side to upgrade / initiate builds.
IX. Mutual Security Guarantees
- to be determined
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Last edited by Cort Haus on 18-11-2003 at 02:43
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Cort Haus
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London
Apr 2002
time: 05:31
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We need to swiftly inform GoW of our contractual protection obligation to RP.
Here's a draft:
quote:
Hi Aggie,
We're working on our draft of an agreement, which we hope to be able to present to you soon. There are two points which we would like to raise now, however.
First, honouring confidentiality, we have not disclosed anything to RP regarding our current talks, therefore they are not aware of the 1-turn ceasefire. We can however advise them to stay put this turn in case they were thinking of any surprise heroics. (Actually, you'd probably like it if they did.) Obviously they have to know quite soon if things go to plan, but we'd probably all prefer to leave it until as late as possible before giving them their instructions.
Second, in the course of our internal discussions a signed document was brought to light which clarifies the nature and extent of our obligations to RP. We are obliged to protect them via MPP, but the bottom line is that nothing has really changed from our position with regard to RP as we spelled it out in the chat. The only difference is that instead of it being a self-imposed team constraint, there is actually a contract behind it - but neither Theseus nor I was aware of it at the time.
Regards,
Cort Haus
Gathering Storm.
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perhaps cc MZ & UnO too. We all know how mailboxes get full.
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:31
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First off, deep regrets, DeepO. This may sound like small beer, but if the relationship couldn't last through just one major conflict,you are prolly better off.
And she didn't play Civ, did she? 
No, really, sorry. Suggestion: Amy and I watch Eddie Izzard when we are bummed out... always helps!
Re RP:
quote:
Originally posted by Cort Haus
Install them securely in North Stormia, complete with capital - perhaps getting them to build markets / courthouses/ harbours. After xx turns return them to Spain, to whichever cities are deemed appropriate, during which time GoW are assured that no significant military is being built, and we might receive those Stormian cities returning some production.
Meanwhile work on RP to see their future as a productive and prosperous part of what intends to be an ultimately victorious alliance. We can offer them a stake in the end-game if they step out of their vengeful mindset, and a warning that moving to destabilise our alliance would signal the end of our obligation to them, and GoW would love to do the final deed. If they do misbehave some of us might wish to take appropriate punitive measures ourselves.
At some point we have to break the good news to RP that we have a way to assure their future - which to an extent would be in their hands, albeit on our terms. |
Exactly, and we are getting close to the need to lay this out for them. I think we may want to do it in roleplaying style... I can take a shot at that if others can work on the GoW contract.
Re GoW:
First, the draft communique to Aggie: Careful! I have said repeatedly that we DID NOT have a contract with RP. MY BAD!! I don't know WHAT I was thinking... I honestly didn't remember the contract negotiations (think of me as Ronald Reagan  ).
I mostly liked the way you drafted communicating the existence of the MPP agreement, but I could see GoW reacting with disbelief that "we were not aware" of such a major agreement and document. I prolly need to send an apologetic PM admitting to my own idiocy, and sort of banking on various excuses, e.g., others on the team taking the lead at that time, my busy work schedule, honest mistake, yadayadayada.
Also, the message about current discussions with RP needs to be subtley different: GoW must believe that RP are aware of our negotiations, and will acquiesce, but that they are not aware of the cease fire. Further, that of course it is a delicate balancing act to ensure their cooperation, but that when the time is right we will 'lower the boom' and require them to agree to our plans.
I'll comment on the contract in a little bit.
How ya feelin', sleepy?
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16-11-2003 07:36
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Also, the return of RP to Spain needs to be addressed, as well as the concept of non-contiguous borders between them and GoW.
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