09-11-2003 03:48									#1
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I am very much hoping that in the next few days we can cut a deal with GoW to backstab ND.

I'm going to jot down some thoughts as to objectives:

* Roleplay - RP's relocation is clearly mandatory. We need to negotiate the ability to return them to Spain at some point... perhaps no sooner than X turns?

* Lego / Vox - I'd like to see them involved as well. I've always envisioned this as a worldwide gangbang on ND.

* Territory - I would like us to control all of the territory below the jungle... we may want to leave the jungle as a DMZ... I anticipate they will want the luxury to the west.

* Gold - They wanna be mercs? Fine, we'll pay them. Do we disclose how much gold we need for upgrades?

* Techs - On the other hand, if we are delivering gold and territory they would never otherwise see, we should get something more. Do they have Gunpowder? This would aid us in the war on ND of course. And then, what about future techs?

* Resources - We should guarantee to each other full access to one of each resource we together control.

* Military coordination - They can see much of what we have on Bob... to be followed next turn by the slowmover second wave in the north. They can also ascertain that we are stronger than them and Lego (individually). How much do we disclose, and when? How much will they disclose of their own dispositions, as well as that of ND?

* Completion of contract - Destruction of ND... none of this "expel from continent" crap.

I'm not sure what the process is going to look like, especially in re to military disclosure and coordination.

	09-11-2003 04:14									#2
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Lego will most likely not join the gangbang. They rather will help ND, to maintain balance. And they will do all they can, that we get not a single tile at Bob.

	09-11-2003 18:14									#3
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I think SR's comments there are probably right. I don't see us getting any joy out of Lego in the forseeable future. I've collected my current thoughts in the 'Grand Strategy' thread, but worth mentioning here is the GoW/RP relationship in any future deal.

Relocating RP is worth quite a bit to GoW, and if reason rather than emotion holds sway, they should see that as a substantial payment. We have so far stopped them fulfilling their contract, and now we can deliver it to them. However, we can't have GoW and RP still howling at each other if both are effective allies. So we'd have to seek to get both parties to drop their posturing.

	09-11-2003 21:22									#4
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Responding to Theseus' points:

RP: Agree that we need to get RP on board, and we need to make sure that we get enough territory on Bob that we can afford to return RP to Bob when the time is right.

Lego/ Vox: I agree with Cort and SR that I see no rational reason for them to join in a war on ND (especially one that seeks their destruction). I fully expect that they will at some point side with ND in this, which means we need to seize a lot of territory very quickly. That plus our naval superiority may enable us to slow down the flow of Lego forces to Bob. As a result, I don't think we even want to give Lego any indication that this war is coming.

I agree with the rest of his points. If ND is only expelled from the continent, they will become another Lego vassel state, which we can not accept.

	11-11-2003 04:06									#5
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Well, tonight's going to be interesting... chats with BOTH Lego and GoW.

* Theseus makes a not to put POST-ITS above each mIRC window so as not to type the wrong thing in the wrong place!!

	11-11-2003 04:52									#6
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Good Luck Theseus,

wish I could be there too but it's already too late over here

GoW should be quite complicated, although it'd be a good idea to get things moving as quickly as possible.

From Lego try and gage whether there is a possible threat on the east coast.

	11-11-2003 05:19									#7
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The chat will be at 9pm EST this evening. MZ and Un0, at a minimum, will be in attendance... I'd like to have at least a few people from GS.

Place: #GoW_CoFA
PW: name

	11-11-2003 08:24									#8
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Damn, we got serious sh*t going on here... anybody who sees this, please jump in.

	11-11-2003 15:13									#9
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Just read the logs this morning. Excellent bit of work there Theseus. If GoW are negotiating in good faith then I think we have a fairly good chance of pulling this off. If we don't attack GoW, Lego stay out of the war, and maybe join in against ND (they'd be foolish not to if we can get GoW to switch sides, otherwise we and GoW will be sharing Bob + Stormia between essentially two civs - they need to hey an equal piece of the action so we all have equal territories for the industrial era).

Once more: Theseus rocks.

	11-11-2003 18:04									#10
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Beach Head on Stormia? What game are they playing.

GoW always overplay their position to the extreme and always try and get much more than they deserve from a deal. That is what happened before the war against RP and that is could happen here. They need to realize that if they ask for too much a team will say screw you then.

They also seem to be sharing our communications with Lego as Lego mentioned the tech request.
I wonder what GoW would do if we simply said give us all your tech or we'll raze all your cities.

Thus far I don't think GoW are offering very much and they seem to be far "in" with Lego.

Perhaps we should ask GoW why a deal with them would be better than a deal where we raze all their cities and share Bob with ND.

If GoW aren't going to give us tech then they should be prepared to do most of the work in taking out ND.

	11-11-2003 19:03									#11
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As soon as they mentioned it, it was apparant it would be a major GS sticking point. It may be that they tout that as a precondition not of an immediate alliance, but for RP's eventual return to Spain, and our permanent presence on Bob.

They pushed it out in the context of a seeking a security guarrantee from us to them that the locked alliance would hold, perhaps in a similar way to the security guarrantee sought by GS from GoW that techs get paid upfront. Both are alarming to the other, yet both sides will insist that they can't trust the other without such serious comittment.

If they insist on it, I don't see an easy way through.

	11-11-2003 19:07									#12
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I don't think GoW are entirely overplaying their position here. We can't raze their cities. We can probably take out Yellowknife, and with luck a few others, but they are recently founded cities which are still small. It would be a pain for GoW, but a blow they could absorb. Meanwhile we gain another enemy. In one sense they have a strong position - we can't do any real damage to the GoW homeland at the moment. In another sense, they don't - they haven't made any recent progress. Pamplona may still be vulnerable, but ND are the only ones benefiting from RPs demise thus far. Carrying on with the war isn't good for GoW.

If either we or GoW get too belligerent, and the deal falls apart, then ND and Lego are the ones who win out, and we and GoW lose, but I think we lose worse.

As for a beach head on Stormia, I'm very much against that. It would put GoW in too strong a position relative to us, militarily. If the murder of ND goes ahead, we end up with an empire more or les equally split on two areas of land (okay, land on Bob may be more scarce than that). GoW would have their land in a single mass. From this point on, they either have 3 move attackers (Riders, Cavalry) or railroads, so they can move forces internally with great speed. Or forces have to be split between two essentially isolated areas - naval transport will be slow relative to GoWs mobility, and even a reasonable sized navy on their part could make shipping hazardous (even if 3/4 transports make it across, we are still losing a lot of troops for very little investment by GoW). True, they have to worry about having to defend a land border, but we have to worry about defending two seperate areas. A beach-head city in the north just gives them even more of a threat (if they get a one turn crossing, we won't even be able to see their ships moving, so we won't know where their troops are massing). Not a good idea from our point of view.

	11-11-2003 19:35									#13
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We can't raze their cities, but they are not aware if this.

We always said that if GS were to invade GoW it would be with a huge force of 40 + knights. Although that is not what we have I believe GoW think we have a force similar to that off their coast. That is what is expected of GS and that is the reason GoW are interested in making a deal. It matters not that we don't have that kind of force. All that matters to GoW is that we could have a force that could raze all their cities.

GoW are likely to try and weasel the deal so that GS gain very little and they and Lego get a much better position.

If GoW aren't going to give tech they should do the brunt of the fighting against ND.

	12-11-2003 04:59									#14
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No contacts from either Lego or GoW all day.

	12-11-2003 23:34									#15
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yeah no contact here either.

	13-11-2003 03:02									#16
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from the recent contact, screw GoW then,

I was stupid to think a deal with them would be possible.

see how they like life with no more land than they currently have and the constant threat of GS or RP attacking them looming over them for the rest of the game.

IMO GoW have blown their chance to have a sizeable amount of land. They get nothing. If they want RP off bob they should have to fight through the mounds of pikemen. .

	13-11-2003 03:28									#17
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Plan B : Ally with ND to destroy GoW?

	13-11-2003 03:37									#18
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I can't believe they still think that our goal is to kill them. that we're taking all of this so personally still.

bah

oh, good job guys


I can't see us forming an alliance with ND, doubt they would want to do that, but who knows.

	13-11-2003 03:58									#19
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Looks like we're a bit buggered then

I don't suppose it worth trying to win the argument with GoW by responding to their thirty million points - or at least some of them. Some are such BS but others so emotional it seems a waste of time to counter them.

Seeing as all the other powers are basically allied against us and comitted to that alliance at this point, the only way it will end is when they've overtaken us and are fighting amongst themselves.

	13-11-2003 04:09									#20
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Don't overreact guys... remember the fever pitch that everyone got to in the flame wars... did you think that was just going to go away?

I mean fer chrissakes, SR won;t even go ON to MZO!!

It's OK though... I would hope that we can all (including GoW) be adult enough to put the past behind us, and deal with the strategic situation RIGHT NOW, which pretty clearly indicates that teaming up is by FAR the best option for both of us.

I PMed Un0 (O ) that I would respond tonight. Let me draft something up when I get home (I hope no one from ND reads over my shoulder as I take notes on the subway! ).

We can make this work. Clearly UnO wants to... let's respond well to this challenge, and then go to work on teh rest of GoW (and GS, if need be).

	13-11-2003 04:23									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I mean fer chrissakes, SR won;t even go ON to MZO!!

I would, but my password doesn't work (banned?) and I'm the heck too proud to ask that a-hole for help, so what?

The proper answer to Lego is "**** you"!

The proper answer to GoW is "**** you"!

I'm drunk.

	13-11-2003 05:58									#22
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Uh, then I will not be asking you for diplo assistance at this time.

	13-11-2003 16:50									#23
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I have to appluade your efforts here T, you have a cooler head than I.

	13-11-2003 23:02									#24
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I guess that for as long as Theseus continues to inspire with his energy and optimism for a deal with GoW, we don't want to be breaking our units on theirs. The GoW leadership is possibly, hopefully, thinking along the same lines.

A look at the screenie from RP shows that we are not well placed to achive a cost-effective result at Alamo. They must have a fair few Knights fortified on that hill in there, with Elites among them. I doubt anyone fancies hitting Muskets on Mountains either. Similarly, GoW may be reluctant to commit losses to taking Pamp, when we could have as good a chance of retaking it as they would of retaking Alamo.

With such a Flanders-style deadlock, could ND be taking the opportunity to wheel round through their road network in the SW and attack us near the coast while our forces are in the wrong place? We'll see what we see on our turn. At least we made short thrift of their naval expedition. They must have hoped to sink more than 1 RP galley when they set out.

	13-11-2003 23:44									#25
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I am hoping to have a deal with GoW before our turn... thank god that this round is taking as long as it is.

	14-11-2003 02:11									#26
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I am going to go ahead with the response to UnO.

	14-11-2003 02:35									#27
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Jesus, that took 4 PMs.

"I'll talk'em to death if I have to!"

	14-11-2003 08:04									#28
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RP have already had a peace offer from GoW offering them a smallish part of Spain that RP are not satisfied with - presumably excluding SP. (see RP contact thread)

It means that GoW are even prepared to let RP hold a token part of Spain to get peace. Hmmm...

	16-11-2003 03:57									#29
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We have a standing open chatroom with GoW:

#GoW_CoFA squid

This is prolly going to be replaced with a new chatroom, as this one is their general diplo rooms for all the teams.

CH, OPD, and I are on with MZ.

	16-11-2003 07:28									#30
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No time to comment on anything, but just one remark, guys: We DO have a signed contract with RP ensuring their existance... we can't let them willingly die. That can't be a point in the discussions, or we would be breaching a contract with them.

DeepO