21-11-2003 05:22									#91
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This is what I have. I just ended up adding a preable and closing, as well as fixing some small errors here and there.

quote: We, the peoples of the Glory of War and the Gathering Storm, in recognizing the threat posed to both of our glorious nations by Neu Demogyptia, agree this nation must be removed from the face of the earth. Therefore, we agree to put our lives, fortunes, and honor to risk in our chance to eliminate this threat once and for all. We pledge to unleash the great power of our Riders and War Chickens for the sake of returning this world to peace! ARTICLE I - Objective 1. The two nations of Gathering Storm and Glory of War, whose sovereign interests have until recently been opposed in a titanic struggle for balance of power on the continent of Bob, have come to recognize that the stalemate in the Second Bobian War can serve the interests of neither side. 2. The source of the clash of interests - GS's MPP defense of Spain and GoW's contract to remove the RP Civ from Spanish soil must be honourably resolved. 3. A realignment of the balance of power is understood by both sides to be their only realistic chance of victory, with the ultimate need of both sides being to have enough productive land and access to resources to be able to eventually compete with the power to the west, Lego, enjoying a large productive continent to itself, and unimpeded in its economic development thus-far by conflict. 4. The primary obstacle to the aspirations of both GoW and GS, however, is recognized to be the Bobian power of Neu Demogyptia. This contract between the nations of Glory of War and Gathering Storm defines the terms and conditions of the hiring of the mercenary nation of GoW by GS to join and co-ordinate forces in a military and economic alliance to remove Neu Demogyptia from the game. ARTICLE II - Honouring existing contractual obligations 1. GS agrees to respect the existing contract between GoW and ND requiring that RP to be removed from the continent of Bob. 2. GoW respects the existing alliance contract between GS and RP including Mutual Protection Pact. 3. GS shall clarify to RP that their continued protection and alliance with GS is dependent on RP making and maintaining peace with GoW as required by GS. 4. RP and GoW will mutually end all hostile and destructive intent and actions against the respective parties. ARTICLE III - Conclusion of hostilities between GoW and GS 1. All Roleplay cities on Bob to be transferred to GS. 2. GS transfers selected cities on N.Stormia to RP. 3. Peace offered and accepted between all parties. ARTICLE IV - Payment for Contract 1. Delivering the removal of RP from Bob, and enabling GoW to fulfil their existing contract with ND is seen as part payment from GS to GoW against the GS contract with GoW to eliminate ND from the game. 2. An agreement on land rights to make GoW the dominant landowner on Bob upon eventual defeat of ND will be made. 3. Allied participation between GS and GoW to defeat ND, with GoW taking the lion's share of the territorial spoils - giving them a large contiguous portion of Bob as far south as the jungle - would be seen as a substantial balance of the payment. 4. Once GS have Gunpowder, GoW can select a technology they would like GS to research for them as part payment of the contract. On completion, GS will deliver that technology to GoW. 5. GS is also able, in the medium and long tem, to deliver a majority portion of the overall research effort to also constitute a portion of the net payment. 6. For the final part of the payment, GoW are to be awarded the honour and glory of inflicting the final blow to ND. ARTICLE V - Non Aggression 1. Neither nation shall attack the other during the duration of the contract unless it is mutually agreed to by both partners. 2. Neither nation shall declare war on the other during the duration of the contract unless it is mutually agreed to by both partners. ARTICLE VI - Technology 1. At the time of the signing of this treaty, GS lags behind GoW in tech, but as soon as they are level, they will be able to contribute strongly to a shared, co-ordinated research program. 2. GS has partially researched Invention, but will need the remainder of that technology and Gunpowder to (a) be aware of the location of Saltpeter deposits, (b) deliver Musketmen to the battlefield, and (c) start contributing to a joint research program. ARTICLE VII - Optional Rider Upgrade Program 1. In recognition of the unique battlefield abilities of the famed GoW Rider Regiments, developed in combination with the military productive power of Leonardo's Workshop, GS considers that the contract may be more swiftly completed by diverting a portion of its own commercial output to their partners GoW for the purposes of upgrading Horsemen/Chariots to Riders. For the purposes of concluding the contract, it makes more sense for GS gold to be spent on upgrading a 3-move knight at half price than a 2-move knight at full price. GS would continue to produce its own Knights, though less than it could otherwise produce. 2. GS would like to offer GoW the opportunity to benefit from this scheme, in appreciation of the efficient military machine that the GoW Civ has constructed, and to the mutual benefit of both parties. 3. Under the program, the transfer of GS economic power into GoW military power would be a firm indication of the trust and honour placed in GoW by GS. By strengthening their partners relative to themselves, GS is offering GoW a fail-safe security guarantee against a hypothetical GS 'backstab'. 4. The level of gpt transfer would be determined by the economic conditions, capabilities, and logistics on the ground, and thus beyond the scope of this document. It might also vary from turn to turn as is pragmatic, rather than fixed-rate deals. A rule of thumb would be 'to significantly strengthen GoW's capacity to fulfil the contract without significantly leaving GS vulnerable to a balance of power deficit in relation to their partner'. 5. Should GoW wish to take up this option, they will be enjoying an additional payment to the already-comprehensive renumeration package offered by GS in Article IV, and will also gain a security guarantee from GS. In a reciprocal gesture which would both honourably provide GS with a security guarantee from GoW, and serve the mutual interests of the fulfilment of the contract, GoW would deliver to GS the technologies of Invention and Gunpowder, with the benefits to both parties that would bring as described in Article VI 6. GS intends to deploy the economic potential of the RP refugees in protected northern Stormia to contribute to the ongoing struggle against ND, by making GPT payments to GS. It is apparent that this source of income could make a valuable net contribution to the proposed Rider Upgrade Program, thus assisting the contractual partners GoW and GS to fulfill their mission. It would be hoped that if GoW choose to partake in this program they would see the value of RP's alliance to GS in their contribution to the mutual cause. ARTICLE VIII - Luxuries Both parties agree to share available luxuries with each other as far as is reasonably possible. ARTICLE IX - Strategic Resources 1. Ideally, full access by both parties should be arranged to all necessary resources - preferably under full urban control, but through trade if necessary. 2. In case of insufficient access to enough of each resource, parties with sole access should co-operate with temporary trade arrangements to allow the other side to upgrade / initiate builds. ARTICLE X - Wonders of the World The partners shall inform each other of what Great Wonders of the world they are planning to construct. ARTICLE XI - Status of the Spanish nation of Roleplay 1. In addition to Article II para 3 above, GS will clarify to RP that their full co-operation with the GoW-GS contract is required under the terms of the existing protection arrangements offered to RP by GS. This co-operation will require the Spanish refugees in N.Stormia to undertake solely economic development work in their new home, with surplus commercial output being made available to GS so that it may contribute to the cause of eliminating ND. 2. Under these demilitarized conditions, RP will constitute no threat to GoW, but will instead be a net contributor to the goal of the contract. 3. Should the Spanish people not accept the terms of their continued protection by GS, perhaps for religious reasons, and given that GS has already paid a substantial price in the cause of their protection - they may elect to dissolve themselves as a nation and exit the game, delivering all holdings to GS. 4. Should the Spanish people accept the terms, and loyally demonstrate a commitment to the requirements of GS and their partners GoW, and if substantial political realignment were to take place in that nation to banish their hostile intent towards GoW, they should be allowed to return to a restricted portion of southern Spain, into areas not sharing a boundary with the intended southern borders of GoW upon completion of the contract. ARTICLE XII - Envisioned Map and border agreements After completion of the contract: 1. All lands north of the Bobian jungle to be GoW's 2. Land south of the jungle to be allocated to GS and other possible GoW allies in the fight against ND, in accordance with Article XI para 4. 3. Exact status of border area - tbd ARTICLE XIII - Completion of Contract 1. Completion of contract shall be deemed to have occurred upon the delivery of the final blow to ND to remove them from the game. The satisfaction of this act shall be granted to GoW in accordance with the terms of payment above, unless both parties agree that the timing of the final act is essential for the necessary elimination of ND on that turn. 2. Upon completion, a mandatory 20 turns of peace shall exist between both parties to this contract. 3. In recognition that GS is not GoW's only potential customer, GS would seek to be given an option, prior to and close to the completion of contract, for the re-hiring of GoW in a subsequent assignment. ARTICLE XIV - Ratification 1. Once this treaty has been signed by the representatives of each partner, those representatives are responsible for taking the contract back to be ratified by the appropriate consitutional bodies in each nation of Gathering Storm and Glory of War. 2. Upon ratification by the consitutional bodies or Glory of War and Gathering Storm and notification of this ratification in each case is sent to the other nation, this contract will go into effect and the partners will be bound by its terms. ARTICLE XV - Amendments This treaty may be amended if representatives of the two partners mutually agree to an amended version of the treaty and such an amended treaty is then ratified using the guidelines found in Article XIV. Therefore, we, the representatives of the Generals of the Glory of War and the Senate of the Gathering Storm, recognizing and agreeing to abide by the above articles, here place our names, pledging our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honour. SIGNATURES

	21-11-2003 05:33									#92
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Hmmmn nice work here,

Although I think we should add something along the lines of "give us back the war chickens you filthy scum bags"

	21-11-2003 07:14									#93
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More importantly, the Cats!

Good job, all.

I *think* that neither of the GoW and RP messages have gone out... they are ready, as far as I am concerned.

I'm going to poke around for Togas (RP) and Nimitz (Lego to see if we need to chat.

	21-11-2003 14:23									#94
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Yes, we could capture Pamplona via war, if that didn't have any additional complications.

	21-11-2003 16:06									#95
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Nice touch on the contract, Octavian.

So should we add this?

quote: Annex 1: The War Chickens The steps of the Stormian Senate building are stained with the tears of mothers weeping over their captured loved ones. Reliable cleaners are difficult to find these days, and the marble is getting so badly stained that GS were wondering whether the captured War Chickens might be returned to them before the builders have to be called in.

	21-11-2003 16:20									#96
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Amended message for RP - to include the points raised since draft 1 - amendements are in italics.

quote: Here is the plan: GS are in negotiations with GoW to conclude their current contract with ND, make peace with GS and RP, then be hired by GS to eliminate ND from the game. Completion of their existing contract can be attained by relocating RP in N.Stormia. GoW will be offered an attractive payment by GS for the proposed new contract, which if they accept will include the provision for RP to be returned to parts of Spain, though not sharing a border with GoW, after the successful conclusion of the war against ND. This would depend on another provision of the contract, that GoW and RP would drop their mutual animosity and intent to destroy each other. GS would build cities and improve land in Spain for eventual transfer to RP. Under the plan, RP would continue to be a valuable ally of GS in the fight against ND - not militarily, but economically. We would like RP to use their new capital and other cities gifted to them in N. Stormia to build transferable economic infrastructure - marketplaces, courthouses and harbors which, on RP's return to Spain would be transferred to GS, who will then enjoy semi-productive cities in North Stormia. Meanwhile, RP can aid GS by offering gpt payments from their interim economy to help pay for upgrades in the fight against ND. Naturally RP will continue to recieve GS military protection during this period. If we are successful against ND, we would probably intend to take out another contract with GOW - this time against Lego. It is our hope that in the course of working with GoW as contractual allies, the inevitable historical animosity between RP and GoW would be at first alleviated by the common cause, and eventually minimised by the development of trust and co-operation. The better relations are between GoW and RP, the stronger RP will be able to grow. In the course of discussions with GoW they hinted that the story about GS having no Saltpeter might not have come from reliable sources. We are working on terms of the deal which will include GS recieving Invention and Gunpowder upfront, to help resolve this issue. We are currently in a one-turn cease-fire with GoW. They will ping some of our Knights with Cats for appearances, but obviously if a deal is to be struck it must be as soon as possible, as GoW cannot keep up appearances for long, and GS and GoW have no wish to destroy each others units at this point. If RP are in agreement, they can gift GS all their cities but Pamp on your next turn if we were able to close the deal quickly. (to ensure the Palace jump the following turn would send the Palace to Stormia.) It might not be possible, but with the RoP bug back again we might have the delay we need. How you could get rid of Pamp without destroying it I don't know, but unless there is another way it might come to that. We're open to suggestions, including taking it in a 1-move war if that is best. We hope this plan isn't too shocking - we think it's the best bet our alliance has of winning the game.

	22-11-2003 00:14									#97
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OK, both RP message and GoW contract are sent.

And conquests has arrived in the UK!

	22-11-2003 03:36									#98
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Once again, super super job!

I know things have been slow, but how 'bout a BIG round of applause for CH!!

Now that the weekend is finally almost here, we should make sure both of GoW and RP know we are available for chats.

	22-11-2003 04:24									#99
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Many thanks

Whatever happens, this phase of the game has been an incredible experience in fantasy politics, definitely worth the effort, and in turn I'd like to thank and applaud Theseus for thinking the unthinkable and hatching this bold plan.

Togas, speaking for himself, has approved the plan. We wait to see what his team thinks, and what GoW think. There will be much haggling, persuasion and negotiation ahead. From what Aggie said, it is possible that they will use the bug delay for these negotiations, rather than to try and play on.

The ball is rolling. The game is on.

	22-11-2003 04:36									#100
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Actually, I think the game really IS on... Aggie sent the save to RP.

RP, then Vox, two short turns, then Lego, then us. We'll prolly need to be ready for the next turn this weekend.

	22-11-2003 04:40									#101
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Er, bad choice of dramatic metaphor, then

	24-11-2003 21:43									#102
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For anyone trying to follow - a summary of GoW's response to the contract is in the Turn 350AD thread.

Aside from the theory of Saltpeter near Pamp / Alamo, GoW's stated reason for desiring that city pair - a strategic crossroads - is a coherent argument in itself. Whether it is the only reason we don't know.

Somehow I'd like to know their reaction to the prospect of Pamp not being there.

I'm in a log-jam for what we should do next, diplomatically :

1) Roleplay have endorsed the plan - despite some internal opposition to it - and are awaiting instructions.

2) I need to ask them whether they'd prefer to disband Pamp or surrender it to us via war - but I don't wish to tell them that GoW is demanding it, as it could weaken support for the plan.

3) Until we know where we stand with GoW on Pamplona, we cannot advise Roleplay what we think is best

4) We lost a lot of units defending Pamplona (or trying to get there), and RP would be unlikely to approve its surrender. We can't give it away except maybe under the strategic resources clause of the contract.

Conclusion. Advise Roleplay to accept Miller Town but otherwise stay put unless we manage to get the GoW deal done before their turn (I doubt it), in which case we'll be advising them to either disband or desert the city.

	24-11-2003 22:34									#103
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Message to RP in log - telling them to hold firm until further notice.
Also asked for their preference re: the Palace jump

	27-11-2003 05:47									#104
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I am getting concerned about the lack of communication with GoW... we should be in chat with them, or at least mutually PMing, every day.

* Theseus sighs.

I'll try tracking them down again.

	27-11-2003 06:26									#105
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They've had a PM from us today.

	27-11-2003 06:35									#106
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This is obviously a big decision for GoW. I'd want to give them some time to decide whether or not they're up to doing this.

	27-11-2003 06:36									#107
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Yeah, OK. I might even get in a little Conquests!!

	27-11-2003 16:58									#108
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Another PM to GoW sent (see Log)

	27-11-2003 19:01									#109
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As there is a consensus that we should not settle for less than a third of Bob, and as we have no idea whether GoW will go with that, we should be thinking as much about alternative plans for a peace with GoW as about longer term considerations.

If anything, there is a greater urgency to have another idea for peace than for long-term plans like where our cities go after the defeat of ND.

I'd like to make a suggestion myself, but my brain keeps clouding over at the thought ...

	27-11-2003 22:08									#110
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So it's over. We convinced Aggie, and possibly others in GoW, but not their team so we failed. But at least we tried.

I'm now expecting Lego and Vox to appear on the East to formally join in the gang-bang on GS that's been going on for hundreds of years now.

So do we go ahead, attack GoW, drag Lego into a world war and go down screaming in a blaze of glory? It would be over soon. Lego are probably ready to hit us in the east.

Or retreat to Stormia, line the coast with our hapless armies, and try and hold out 'till amphibious warfare? If so, the next job might be to start counting tiles round the coast to see how many defenders we need.

	27-11-2003 22:29									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus Or retreat to Stormia, line the coast with our hapless armies, and try and hold out 'till amphibious warfare? If so, the next job might be to start counting tiles round the coast to see how many defenders we need.

I think this is the only option left,

we'll have to use some teleportation to get them there

we can use hit and run for the rest of the game with RP's conquistadors and RP can let GoW rot in WW. If they want any more land on bob they'll have to fight thorough pikes on hills to get it with the constant threat of invastion from us looming.

	27-11-2003 22:44									#112
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quote: Originally posted by OPD we'll have to use some teleportation to get them there

Well, we have plenty of cities to return to RP that we can use to teleport home. We might as well let RP keep N. Stormia if the coast can be defended. With their small no-of cities they probably have better production there than we do - and with fewer cities ourselves our existing ones will be less corrupt.

I think the 5 damaged knights nr Pamp are probably done for. Maybe they'll take one or two enemy units with them on the forest - if they stay on the mountain they'll just get pinged down and slaughtered.

	27-11-2003 23:42									#113
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I am soooo depressed by this.

Let me ponder on it whilst stuffing myself with turkey.

	27-11-2003 23:58									#114
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I counted approx 105 tiles including cities all round Stormia. That's half of our tiles! We have 150 units, mostly on Bob but three very handy teleport gates are setup

I doubt we have the luxury of scruples about telporting now do we? This was supposed to be our Normandy - but it's our Dunkirk! Maybe Normandy comes later

	03-12-2003 15:45									#115
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quote: Aggie, Thanks for the reply. A view is developing at GS that the key obstacle to peace on Bob lies in the following conundrum: 1. GS are keen to hang on to what they and their allies hold in Spain because of (a) land shortage (b) possible essential strategic resource access - but we don't know for sure yet and (c) shield investment made. 2. GoW are keen to drive GS & their allies from Spain - perhaps for the same reasons as GS wish to hold it, but with the key additional reason that Spain, or part of it, was to be ND's award to GoW under a contract to drive RP from the continent. The longer that shields continue to be spent forcing an outcome, the more Lego benefits, and the further behind the protagonists on Bob - particularly the sqeezed nations of GoW and GS - will fall. We could have more Forest of Doom battles before a military settlement is finally reached, but we think a better option for all 3 of us is for GoW, ND and GS to sit down together as soon as possible and determine a final settlement to the great and terrible Bobian war. Understanding as we do now that some on the GoW side have more affection and respect for RP than GS, maybe the Spanish should have a seat at the table too. Regards, CH

	03-12-2003 20:01									#116
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Aggie has twice side-stepped my requests for suggested peace terms from them. This is why I drafted the above, which people might like to comment on.

They might be

1. Preparing for a great push - perhaps wanting to either sieze Pamplona before discussing peace or further weakening GS.

or,

2. Holding secret talks with RP, who have also been quiet und unresponsive lately. If I don't hear from either BF or Togas within 24 hours of today's PM, I shall become suspicious.

UnO's sudden public affection for RP might just be another slap at us, or maybe it indicates something else...

	03-12-2003 20:51									#117
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I agree.

I think they are going to take P. either this turn or next (next, if they need to heal their units and/or line up the cats, the takedown of the nights was a prelude, so the cat stack wouldn't be threatened). Probably you will see our other pamp stack crushed this turn and P. to fall next. Once that's over, they probably figure that they can quickly overwhelm the rest of our bob holdings (probably right) so we shall see.

re RP. occassionally they go silent, have been since early in the war. It does make me nervous that they are in the north......

Thought just crossed my mind....

What if...Uno has been going on about restoring Vox to Stormia...what if there was a trade....

Lego and GoW ally to defeat ND/keep in check
RP is restored, partially, to Spain and fights ND

in exchange for

Harry's hideout to GoW. We open the save, HH is GoW and there are 40 riders in it. Possible?


I'm quite sure that RP would stab us in the back at a moment's notice, if they were restored to power in their homeland.


Safeguards: get HH back from RP, or set up a defensive Galley net that would alert us to ships within a turn of HH.

Gifting the city would be the only way for them to go, due to turn times, we would know if they abandoned it or if they attacked our defensive lines and could recover I think.


What are the arrangements regarding defensive units in their cities on Stormia, it makes me nervous if they will have more than mps there.

	03-12-2003 20:57									#118
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I don't see use in Spain anymore. Let's get rid of them now. They can have their holdings on Bob back and we get our north back, this turn. If they refuse it, we take it by force.

	03-12-2003 21:04									#119
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Is spain researching anything currently?

If they are about to complete something, then they have some utility, but if not, we could just trade back all of our holdings and let GoW eliminate them. THey are, IMHO a liability in the north. We fought so hard to gain control of the land, it would be devastating to have our trust betrayed and lose it through RP treachery.

Can we really trust Togas and Bigfree et all?

	03-12-2003 21:19									#120
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Just when things look like they can't get any worse, they do.

UnO's torrents of vitriol are now using our attempts to rehouse RP on Stormia as propaganda material against us - and now we're being forced to consider whether RP might backstab us - after all we've done to keep them in the game at our expense.

I'd like to send the above draft to Aggie anyway - just for the record and pointless though it is - and perhaps follow it up with an enquiry as to whether 'removing GS from the game' was now official GoW policy. We like to know where we stand.