03-12-2003 21:30									#121
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Can we really trust Togas and Bigfree et all?

No.

	03-12-2003 21:47									#122
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I don't see what immediate mischief they could cause this turn though. They can't gift cities to GoW while at war unless it was from a peace deal initiated the turn before last. Even if the three RP cities there were GoW's on our turn, they couldn't have any units there - and anyway, we've probably got more units in N.Stormia this turn than we have on Bob.

Whatever - if there's a consensus that we can't afford to trust them any more then that'd be that. I don't know about their history, so I'm perhaps being naive in hoping that they can repay us rather than betray us.

We should also consider another angle though :

What if UnO's rantings were not the work of an over-emotional player, but part of their play-style of public-forum propaganda-mongering? We get paranoid that RP are going to backstab us and hand them over to the wolves and GoW say 'thank-you very much, suckers'?

	03-12-2003 21:56									#123
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Ah good point about the peace part.

We would have a guaranteed one turn heads up due to that, assuming that any assault would occur in the near future. I tend to think that anything will happen after we have been expelled from Bob and Spain has nothing to do with their time. Idle minds.

So if we suddenly see RP at peace, we stall, pming them and then decide to Lux them or not.

CH- they haven't been....untrustworthy, but they have schemed the whole game, giving themselves out clauses in every contract, they were also a big supporter of Vox in their war against us. Plus they rationalize their actions through their roleplaying, if you catch my drift. There's a reason that GoW and ND allied in an awkward (front wise, land wise) alliance against RP, because they haven't been that straight up with anyone. Granted none of the teams have been, probably save Nd.

	03-12-2003 23:14									#124
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I think Togas' last post puts to sleep some of my fears. Its about time we heard from one of them (though theres probably only a handful left)

sad really,what this game has devolved into.

	04-12-2003 00:41									#125
	Remove this text

They're still a security risk. It may hurt, but I don't want them in N Stormia.

	04-12-2003 02:42									#126
	Got spare money?

Really? Maybe, but at this point I'm willing to risk it. They could actually get some use out of that land, and be a research partner for us.

To quote Fellowship of the Ring (movie): "Our list of allies grows thin."

-Arrian

	04-12-2003 02:46									#127
	Increase Your PM Length

Did you see the possibility for them to backstab us by gifting a city, which would break our coastal blockade? We can't demand that they remain at war with all civs forever. Do you trust Togas, BigFree & Co? I don't.

	04-12-2003 02:47									#128
	Support Apolyton

Besides, they are not much of an ally anyway. More a burden.

	04-12-2003 02:53									#129
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Right now, sure. But if we can make peace with ND/GoW (removal of RP from Bob is a main condition of theirs) and move them to N. Stormia, RP will be an asset, not a liability. Frankly, I'm concerned we will have trouble trading for tech, and RP can help us deal with that problem.

I'm not saying there is no risk here. They're another team, and thus there is always a risk of them doing something counter to our interests. However, I rate this risk as relatively low, and I see potential gains in exchange for that risk.

Look, after all of this, if RP turns on us, what's the point?

-Arrian

	04-12-2003 03:06									#130
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Man, every time I check back into this forum, I get more depressed! I was out of town for work, come back and find out the GoW deal is dead. Then, I have Thanksgiving commitments, come back and find out that we're now questioning whether we can trust RP.

Problem is, I can see SR's point and the danger RP poses. Think about it: RP want Spain back. GoW will get much of Spain after driving them and us from Bob. GoW would dearly love to eliminate us from the game. In exchange for RP cities in Northern Stormia, GoW returns Spain to RP, becoming our new neighbors. Bad things happen.

I don't think we need to overreact just yet, but it gives us all the more reason to really think this whole thing through. I agree that we need to read any RP response carefully, as it may give us at least some indications of what to expect.

Dark days, gentlemen.

	04-12-2003 03:46									#131
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Some brighter news : I think these posts by Togas and Aggie are both well worth the read.

If Togas' views, eloquently damning GoW vindictiveness and acknowleding RP's past mistakes, reflect his team, or what's left, RP won't backstab GS for GoW or any of them.

Aggie's post is good too - our 'heroic, self-sacrificing defense of Pamplona' that cost us so dear last turn has been seen in a noble light - and he lists the reasons we've been turning over on this forum as to why we (and RP) are still in the game.