12-11-2003 23:18									#31
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quote: So when you say you hate Palestinians you really mean every single Palestinian, and not just those responsible for the terrorist attacks?

When did I say I hate Palestinians?

quote: In case you meant you wanted me to give an example... The whole Sharon case with Belgium's genocide law springs to mind. Israel jumped onto the Belgian government frothing at the mouth, calling it anti-semitic. I gather they hadn't heard of the separation of power yet?

The Israeli government did NOT call the belgian government antisemitic, at least not to the best of my knowledge ( Please correct me, if you can prove it. ). What it did say that that case was extremely biased, the law that allowed it was stupid, condenscending and hypocritical, and that many people supporting that case in court did so from antisemitical reasons.

quote: Sure, he could have put it more diplomatically, but hey, he's not a politician you know... And there's still something like "freedom of speech".

That's not what we're debating here, are we? We're debating whether this was an anti-semite statement, or not.

quote: The first quote is a bit of a bold statement maybe, probably mostly because of the heat of the argument or because of his distaste of Israeli politics. I don't see anything wrong with it

since he's discussing having "more history", it's obvious that he's comparing the GREEKS with the JEWS. ( btw, his claim is wrong, but nm that. ) Therefore, in his statement of "THIS NATION is the root of all evil", he doesn't mean Israel, Zionist entity, whatever.




Maybe we should've rolled over and died, like 60 years ago. Maybe then he'd write some songs about us.

	12-11-2003 23:26									#32
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quote: I thought you were making fun of Pattycakes, to be honest....

Same here, a Greek troll nicknamed Zorba?

	12-11-2003 23:27									#33
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If anti-Semitism is so bad in Europe, why don't they hate New York and Florida?

	12-11-2003 23:30									#34
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They do, as part of their collective hate of america, of course.

	12-11-2003 23:44									#35
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quote: Greek composer and cultural icon Mikis Theodorakis added his contribution to the anti-Semitic miasma rising in parts of the world by characterizing the Jews as the root of the world's evils

Miasma, huh? That's a new one.

Anti-semitism in Europe is grossly exaggerated for a variety of political ends. Sad and frightening.

	12-11-2003 23:52									#36
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quote: Originally posted by axi However it's about time that the world leaves nationalism behind and progresses to the next stage.

Great sentiments! So, uh, how you gonna implement it? I mean, there's 6.2 billion people to consider here ...

	13-11-2003 01:09									#37
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Israel can kiss my ass.

	13-11-2003 01:14									#38
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No need to share your crazy phantasies here....

	13-11-2003 01:32									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel When did I say I hate Palestinians?

No idea... I was just using it as an example. People use generalizations (to put it in a generalization ).

quote: The Israeli government did NOT call the belgian government antisemitic, at least not to the best of my knowledge ( Please correct me, if you can prove it. ).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/St...,895288,00.html

quote: What it did say that that case was extremely biased, the law that allowed it was stupid, condenscending and hypocritical, and that many people supporting that case in court did so from antisemitical reasons.

Yes, the law was silly, but I doubt it was condescending or hypocritical. It's not like they passed it just to annoy Israel or anything. I think it was passed originally for the international tribunal for war crimes in Rwanda.

I don't think the people brought the case to court for antisemitic reasons, although it certainly was rather opportunistic.

quote: That's not what we're debating here, are we? We're debating whether this was an anti-semite statement, or not.

Point taken.

quote: since he's discussing having "more history", it's obvious that he's comparing the GREEKS with the JEWS. ( btw, his claim is wrong, but nm that. ) Therefore, in his statement of "THIS NATION is the root of all evil", he doesn't mean Israel, Zionist entity, whatever.

I'm not sure... I think a lot of people use Israeli and Jew interchangeably, simply because pretty much the only Jews in world news these days are the Israelis. Not to mention that Israel usually reacts to (supposedly) anti-semitic events (thereby identifying itself with Judaism, even though it is a secular state), rather than some rabbi or the Simon Wiesenthal center or something... But then, those don't have any ulterior political motives to jump on things like this.

	13-11-2003 01:44									#40
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quote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,895288,00.html

You can clearly see, it accuses the court not the government. are you familiar with the concept of separation of powers?

quote: Yes, the law was silly, but I doubt it was condescending or hypocritical. It's not like they passed it just to annoy Israel or anything. I think it was passed originally for the international tribunal for war crimes in Rwanda.

it WAS condescending, because Belgium is hardly the judge of approriate state behavior in modern history. *cough*Congo*cough*

quote: I'm not sure... I think a lot of people use Israeli and Jew interchangeably, simply because pretty much the only Jews in world news these days are the Israelis.

nope. The USA is still a bit in front on the number of jews in the world, i.e. there are more of them in the US, than in Israel. Yes, you heard it, the biggest number of jews is IN THE US.

quote: Not to mention that Israel usually reacts to (supposedly) anti-semitic events (thereby identifying itself with Judaism, even though it is a secular state), rather than some rabbi or the Simon Wiesenthal center or something... But then, those don't have any ulterior political motives to jump on things like this.

Though Israel is relatively secular ( relatively to the Mid east, but still is rather religious, sadly, fortunately, the tide of secularism is back on track ), it still is a nation-state. Jews aren't just a religion, but a nation, too.


@BeBro....

	13-11-2003 02:17									#41
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quote: it WAS condescending, because Belgium is hardly the judge of approriate state behavior in modern history. *cough*Congo*cough*

I'm pretty sure the same law could have been used to accuse Belgians regarding Congo.

quote: nope. The USA is still a bit in front on the number of jews in the world, i.e. there are more of them in the US, than in Israel. Yes, you heard it, the biggest number of jews is IN THE US.

I know. That's why I said "Jews in world news". Even if the entire US government were Jewish, we never hear they are.

quote: Jews aren't just a religion, but a nation, too.

I'm sure a lot of Israelis as well as Jews would disagree with that.

	13-11-2003 02:18									#42
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****ing great thread title.



-Arrian

	13-11-2003 09:45									#43
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I'm amused at the notion that the Greeks weren't historically aggressive. Just because they've been impotent in modern history (except where Italians are concerned) doesn't make them lambs. Looks like he needs a primer on his own history.

	13-11-2003 09:51									#44
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quote: I'm sure a lot of Israelis as well as Jews would disagree with that.

well, gee, that's great, but does that mean anything? Jews are a nation, in all matter concerned.

	13-11-2003 22:38									#45
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Even though I'm bored, or maybe because of it, here are some "developments" which I will try to translate.


From the government spokesman:

"The government does not share and does not agree with the views expressed during the event by Mikis Theodorakis concerning the Jewish people. The Greek people in its historical journey has defended the Hebrew Community in Greece which Mr. Theodorakis himself has honoured with his musical work "Mauthausen" (sp?)

Mikis Theodorakis, himself, in his yesterday written statement, reminds that he was always on the side of the people of Israel.

Specifically he mentions:

"My opinion for the people of Israel was always known - as is for all matters and i honestly wonder/(question) for what reason/(purpose) so much noise was now created, as if some people heard it for the first time.
Maybe some, considered this moment opportune for them to unleash this attack against me.
I always was on the side of the weak, of the fighting for its rights peoples. And amongst them, the people of Israel.
I've sung his pathoi/(tortures) as best as I could.
I always was in favor of the peaceful coexistance of peoples. And I have demonstrated it, by deeds, amongst others when I assumed the role of the mediator between Alon (sp?) and Arafat in the events of 1972.

But, exactly because of these reasons, I am absolutely against the Saron policy and I have repedeatly underlined it, as I have also repedeadly condemned the role of epifanon (??) (well known/public figures) American Jewish politicians, thinkers and theoriticians in the carving out of today's aggressive "policy" of Bush.

Only indentionally there can be a confusion between the Israeli people, which by deeds I have proven that I honour and admire, and those negative phenomena which in essence THEY (his capitals) blacken the image of Israel playing genuine "antisemitic" part, THEY on the side of the bad/(evil), in the root of bad (evil) as I have recently declared(/said).

Personally, I am glad because I know that there are a lot of Israelis in all the world and inside Israel who agree with me and are fighting for the real rights of their people who can coexist with the rights of other people, they fight for peace in their region and the whole world.
I am glad that we are together in these common(shared) fights, for decades. And I know that they know me well, through these struggles, and are not waiting from the slurs (mud) of some to know me.
Is this perhaps the goal of those who, suddendly, "discovered" my ideas and slured(badmouthed me) me as an "antisemetic"?






Sorry for the translation many words in greek i dont know them in english, so i did what i could.


http://www.enet.gr/online/online_p1...110&id=74397580

	14-11-2003 01:31									#46
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You know it is a funny thing these days but as soon as you say something about Jews you are labelled as an anti-semetic or whatever. One is entitled to his opinion I say, even if it is the wrong to everybody else. You cross the line when you stop úsing words like Sharon and his politics.

Under the pretense of "the was against terrorism" Sharon and Bush, two like minded blood driven and exteremely dangerous, are making this world very unsafe.

So long....

PS: Geia sou Paikti!

So long...

	14-11-2003 01:45									#47
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from Mikis' official page
http://www.mikis-theodorakis.net/declar121103-e.htm

quote: My opinion of the Israeli people, as on all things, has always been known and I am frankly at a loss as to why such a great commotion was made this time, as if it was heard for the first time. Maybe some people judged this to be the right time to launch an attack on me. I was always on the side of the weak, of those struggling for the Justice of People. And among them were the Israeli People. I sang their suffering as well as I could. I was always in favor of the peaceful coexistence of peoples. And I showed this in practice, when, among other things, I undertook a mediatory role between Alon and Arafat in the incidents of 1972. But, precisely for these reasons, I am totally opposed to Sharon’s policy and I have stressed this repeatedly, just as I have repeatedly condemned the role of prominent American Jewish politicians, intellectuals and theorists in the shaping of today’s aggressive Bush “policy.” Only through a conscious effort can anyone confuse the Israeli People, for whom I have shown my respect and wonder in practice and these negative phenomena which are what truly blacken the image of Israel and play a genuine “anti-Semitic” role. It is these which are on the side of Evil, the root of Evil, as I stated recently. Personally, I am happy because I know that there are many Israelis all over the world and within Israel who agree with me and are striving for the true Justice of their People and can coexist with the Justice of other People as well, who are struggling for Peace in their region and the whole world. I am happy that we have been together in these joint struggles for decades now. And I know that they know me well through these struggles and they are not waiting for the mud of some in order to get to know me. But perhaps this is the aim of those who suddenly “discovered” my ideas and slander me as an alleged “anti-Semite.”

	14-11-2003 01:50									#48
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paiktis, pioneer, you have the same chick as your avatar? Is this something extremely kinky? You have it on tape?

	14-11-2003 01:50									#49
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good lord this is amazingly funny

from miki's official site guestbook

quote: I was in Greece in 1968 when it was a crime to play your music. You had a reputation as a peace loving person and students loved you. Your recent anti-semitic remarks are hurtful and ill informed. The Jews and the Greeks both have long and rich histories and have contributed greatly to world civilization. Jewish history is no more aggressive than Greek History. For a person who has known suffering and has shown courage you should be ashamed of yourself for your anti-semitic remarks. You should publicly retract them. Please remember that the last time the world went on a Jew hating rampage, Greece was invaded and the venerable Jewish communities of Salonika, Rhodes and other communities were destroyed. Do you want your statements to result in Jewish blood being on your hands? Do you place yourself with the Nazi's and their anti-semitisim? The Palestinians have done many terrible acts in Greece as well as Israel. Why support murderers? Do you think it difficult for them to ally with a Turkish militant group to begin bombings in your home city? Please reply in person. This is a serious thoughtful comment. Michael

	14-11-2003 01:52									#50
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this is fun

quote: Dear Mr. Theodorakis. Please know that there are several websites sponsored by Jews who are anti-Zionist on the internet that discuss the contrast between the heresy of Zionism and Judaism. The websites are: www.jewsagainstzionism.com, www.nkusa.org and www.jewsnotzionists.org. You will surely find them interesting! The world must know the truth that Zionism is NOT Judaism!!!

	14-11-2003 01:53									#51
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simply amazing

quote: Many people here in Israel listen to Greek music and love your songs. We were all shocked to read about the recent press conference in which you made antisemitic remarks. I guess that we Jews will have think of you as being another Wagner: a musical genius tainted with racism.

	14-11-2003 01:54									#52
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oh bull. That's not what he said. If he'd just say that he used the wrong words, I'd have little problem with it. Incidentally, I am not labeling 'The Pioneer' an anti-semite, though I like the way he'll ignore the quote and the thread, to protect a national icon . Neither do I find anything anti-semitic in Theodorakis' current statement, for all of you smartasses.

The fact is, what he said differs quite a lot from what he claims he said in the official statement. If he made a mistake, I think he'd be much smarter if he'd just say that he used the wrong words. Is it so goddamn hard?

I guess it is.

	14-11-2003 01:55									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka paiktis, pioneer, you have the same chick as your avatar? Is this something extremely kinky? You have it on tape?

No, I wish. It is the only thing I like about the french, a pop star called Alizeč with devent music.

So long...

	14-11-2003 02:00									#54
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quote: The fact is, what he said differs quite a lot from what he claims he said in the official statement. If he made a mistake, I think he'd be much smarter if he'd just say that he used the wrong words. Is it so goddamn hard?

the man is 80, he is a legend and would not(i'm sure i wouldnt) make any kind of "i made a mistake" statement to please people who didnt even try to think for a second before judging him and his history or who tried take advantage of the situation...

	14-11-2003 02:01									#55
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nothing amazing about this, MarkG. I really fail to understand how can you miss that his words were anti-semitical?

Reading. it's not as difficult as it sounds.

	14-11-2003 02:04									#56
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It's what I said earlier, we have gotten to the point where you cannot say anything about the americans or the jews. It is a pity....

So long...

	14-11-2003 02:07									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel nothing amazing about this, MarkG. I really fail to understand how can you miss that his words were anti-semitical?

whatever he may or may not have said are overcome by his actions(for the Jews among other nations). therefore i give him the benefit of the doubt(at least) over any newspaper that likes to sell copies with the "world hates us" headlines...

	14-11-2003 02:14									#58
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG the man is 80, he is a legend and would not(i'm sure i wouldnt) make any kind of "i made a mistake" statement to please people who didnt even try to think for a second before judging him and his history or who tried take advantage of the situation...

"tried to take advantage of the situation"? who the hell can take advantage of the situation?

And it sadden me to hear that you think that people that are legends are entitled to say whatever the **** they want to. EVEN WHEN THEY'RE 80. Just as we booed our own 78 year old ex president for anti-gay remarks, so was the entire spectrum of the Israeli public repulsed by this statement.

I am honestly very sorry that he said what he said, but this kind of statement was ultra-stupid, and saying he "has chosen the wrong wording" ( not sorry, god forbid, since it would remove for it's eternal glory) wouldn't hurt him, at all.

But no! Instead, he chose to ignore the fact that he said the words that he did say, and replied to a real-life strawman, and many others, even here on apolyton, tried to defend his words, saying 'you can't criticize anything Israel does, or you'll be called anti-semitical', while what he was saying WAS anti-semitical. Just as statements of a famous Israeli singer in support for transfer, pushed him into the fringe ( though in his case, this was no mistake). You have a responsibility for the things you say, and Israelis don't hold anyone for a double-standard.

	14-11-2003 02:19									#59
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i simply find more possible that some newspapers want to sell copies rather than mikis hating jews....

so it's not about "legends" saying whatever they want, it's about thinking before judging them based on a single sentence

	14-11-2003 02:23									#60
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and btw i think you're excercising the fanatism that he talked about chill out, the world is not out to get you