12-11-2003 19:54									#1
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Yep, don't believe the hype. It's not an antisemitical remark, AT ALL.

	12-11-2003 20:06									#2
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I would not agree with Mikis Theodorakis. It is not the Jews who are evil. It is the sexual-monotheistic brand of totalitarianism that is evil.

	12-11-2003 20:06									#3
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Why do you care what this guy thinks? He's less than irrelevant...

	12-11-2003 20:08									#4
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I think he's a real-life troll. What saddens me is the fact that no condemnation of this came from the greek government.

	12-11-2003 20:11									#5
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quote: What saddens me is the fact that no condemnation of this came from the greek government.

I can understand being upset by the comments, but do you really expect the Greek government to apologize for the statements of a private citizen? That's a little silly, I think. You don't expect the US government to apologize for all the horribly anti-Semitic crap Louis Farrakhan spits out, do you?

	12-11-2003 20:16									#6
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Look no further than MarkG and paiktis.

	12-11-2003 20:35									#7
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Why the hell does the paranoid Israeli government have to jump on things like this? I bet they think that German babyfood thing is also part of the grand anti-semitic conspiracy. Isn't Israel supposed to be a secular state anyway?

	12-11-2003 20:39									#8
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quote: Isn't Israel supposed to be a secular state anyway?

What does this have to do with religion? The Greek idiot said that Israel itself was a "root of evil"...

	12-11-2003 20:59									#9
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You have no idea who Mikis Theodorakis is, have you?

Accusing him of being antisemite is kinda like accusing lord Byron as an anthellene.

Go to his site: http://www.mikis-theodorakis.net/

and specifically look for "Mauthausen"

Here are some lyrics for you.

quote: 1 - SONG OF SONGS My love, how beautiful she is In her everyday dress. With a little comb on her hair. Nobody know how beautiful she was. Young girls of Auschwitz. Young girls of Dachau. Have you seen my love? We saw her on a long journey She no longer had her everyday dress Or the little comb on her hair. My love, how beautiful she is. Fondled by her mother And the kisses of her brother Nobody knew how beautiful she was Young girls of Mauthausen, Young girls of Belsen, Have you seen my love? We saw her in the frozen square A number in her white hand And a yellow star on her heart. 2 - ANDONIS There, on the great staircase, On the staircase of tears. In the dark sentry of death, In the quarry of lamentation. Jews and partisans are marching. Jews and partisans are falling, They carry a rock on their backs. A rock, a cross of death. It's there that Andonis hears a voice. The voice "Oh comrade, oh, comrade. Help me climb the stairs." But there, on the great staircase. On the staircase of tears. Help is an insult. Compassion is a curse. The Jew falls on the stair, And the staircase turns red "And you, my boy, you, come this way Get hold of a second rock." I lift two rocks. I lift three rocks. Me, my name is Andonis. And if you are a man, well then, come here On this marble threshing-floor. 3 - THE FUGITIVE Yannos Ber who comes from the North Cannot stand the barbed wire. He takes heart he takes wing, He runs through the villages of the valley. Good lady, give me a piece of bread. Give me some clothes to change. l have to go on a long journey. And over lakes to fly. Wherever he goes, wherever he stops Terror and fear beat their wings, And a terrible voice is heard. "Hide from the fugitive." Christians, I am no murderer. No wild animal to eat you I have escaped from prison To go back to my home. Ah! What solitude of death In this country of Bertolt Brecht! Yannos is handed over to the SS They take him now for execution. 4 - WHEN THE WAS IS OVER Girl with the weeping eyes, Girl with the frozen hands. Forget me not when the war is over. Joy of the world. come to the gate So that we could embrace in the street. So that we could kiss in the square. So that we could make love in the quarry. In the gas chambers, On the staircase, in the observation post. Love in the middle of noon In all the corners of death Till its shadow will be no more.

He wrote the music for these songs. Is that man an antisemite?

	12-11-2003 21:02									#10
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quote: Is that man an antisemite?

Apparently...

	12-11-2003 21:10									#11
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As for what he said about Israel...

I don't get it, what is to respect and admire in the state of Israel? It's a terrorist state. a state that opresses a whole nation and it's arguably the root of all the troubles in the Middle East. Barring the US, it is now the most aggressive state in the world, specially if we consider it's size. It is a state run by fascistoids and if the Israeli people are coerced by the blind violence of the bombings into supporting them, then too bad for them, since they have failed miserably in seeing what the only viable option for peace in Palestine is.

Now, all this has nothing to do with the Jews in general. Many Jews do not support the state of Israel and quite a few of them believe that it should not have been created. The state of Israel does not represent all Jews, albeit having proclaimed itself their protector and vanguard. Saying that everyone who accuses Israel is an antisemite is something like saying that condemning the crimes of Saddam Hussein makes you an arab-hater.

	12-11-2003 21:12									#12
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How does he imagine that the Greeks have more history than the Jews? unless he is adopting the the Mycenaeans and Minoans as Greeks.

	12-11-2003 21:14									#13
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I'm not sure there are really "evil" people.

Some people - for whatever "reason", including being insane - do evil things, for sure.

I agree with you Az, this pillock is talking out of his arse.

	12-11-2003 21:31									#14
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quote: How does he imagine that the Greeks have more history than the Jews? unless he is adopting the the Mycenaeans and Minoans as Greeks.

Since we have included them into our mythology and they lived in our country, well, I guess we are adopting them.

As for Theodorakis: he's definitely not a saint and he's very old, so old that dementia probably makes him not so careful of what he's saying.

Regardless of that, let's think a little bit about modern history, since that's what's most relevant to the character of both nations. Greece and Israel have alot of similarities since both are ancient peoples curturally disconnected from their neighbours. Both have had historically very dispersed populations (although Greeks were more concentrated around the Aegean sea) which made them live along with other nations and (in the most recent centuries) as subjects to foreign empires. We Greeks however were subject to nationalism much earlier than the Jews and through a revolution and subsequent wars managed to consolidate our nation-state and put and end into our expansionism some 80 years ago. The Zionists only begun in 1903 and after 3 wars, they have still unsettled differences. This means that they have not ended their quest for "lebensraum" and this makes them openly aggressive. This is happening with other nations too, f.e. the Albanians. They are still in an earlier historical stage.

However it's about time that the world leaves nationalism behind and progresses to the next stage.

	12-11-2003 21:34									#15
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Last edited by DinoDoc on 12-11-2003 at 21:44

	12-11-2003 21:39									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Isn't Israel supposed to be a secular state anyway? What does this have to do with religion? The Greek idiot said that Israel itself was a "root of evil"...

Then why do they insist on calling it anti-semitic?

	12-11-2003 21:43									#17
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	12-11-2003 21:43									#18
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While it is good is he is not so bad as to be considered a Nazi, another sad sign of rising anti-semitism in Europe.

	12-11-2003 21:44									#19
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quote: Then why do they insist on calling it anti-semitic?

You expect me to make up some cumbersome term like "hatred of the Israeli state" just because you can't understand the context in which a word is used?

Besides, he attacked the Jewish people in addition to the Israeli state.

	12-11-2003 21:49									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: What saddens me is the fact that no condemnation of this came from the greek government. I can understand being upset by the comments, but do you really expect the Greek government to apologize for the statements of a private citizen? That's a little silly, I think. You don't expect the US government to apologize for all the horribly anti-Semitic crap Louis Farrakhan spits out, do you?

He said it in a forum which also held a number of Greek ministers. Noone protested his words.

And no, Mercator, the German babyfood isn't part of an anti-semite conspiracy.

I really love the way you're missing the fact that the guy didn't "beat around the bush". He said plainly and simply: "this small nation ( the jews ) is the root of all evil" You can clearly see that he didn't mean "Israel" as some would like to believe, as he went on speaking about the jews.

	12-11-2003 21:52									#21
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quote: He said it in a forum which also held a number of Greek ministers. Noone protested his words.

I wouldn't have protested if I were them; I would've just ignored it and acted like I was never there. No sense saying something that will inevitably piss off someone when you can just ignore it and let it go away on its own.

	12-11-2003 21:56									#22
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Well it didn't go away, you chickenshit.

	12-11-2003 21:57									#23
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Yeah it has. Do you think anyone listens to Israeli whinging about anti-Semitism?

	12-11-2003 21:59									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten You expect me to make up some cumbersome term like "hatred of the Israeli state" just because you can't understand the context in which a word is used? Besides, he attacked the Jewish people in addition to the Israeli state.

Not you... the state of Israel. They make it their business to call everyone who disagrees with their politics an anti-semite.

This guy does seem to have used rather dodgy wording, but maybe the two sentences in the article were badly translated, or simply taken out of context. Not to mention you just said anti-semitism can be understood to be meaning hatred of Israel. Maybe Mikis had the same idea about the use of the names Jew and Israeli. The only reason why we can't say for sure is because we don't have the context in which he made these statements.

Edit: added quote.

	12-11-2003 22:01									#25
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quote: Not to mention you just said anti-semitism can be understood to be meaning hatred of Israel.

Well, only if you hate Israel because you think the Jews are a violent people with no real history...

	12-11-2003 22:13									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator Not you... the state of Israel. They make it their business to call everyone who disagrees with their politics an anti-semite.

That's bullshit. I would like to give you an example of thate. Israelis have always taken constuctive criticism very seriously. It's when people spew garbage like this, the red lines are crossed.

quote: This guy does seem to have used rather dodgy wording, but maybe the two sentences in the article were badly translated, or simply taken out of context.

'taken out of context' Isn't that what politicians say to spin their way out of the things they said?

quote: Not to mention you just said anti-semitism can be understood to be meaning hatred of Israel. Maybe Mikis had the same idea about the use of the names Jew and Israeli. The only reason why we can't say for sure is because we don't have the context in which he made these statements. Edit: added quote.

So it's ok to hate all Israelis? oh, gee, and I was worried.

I am really saddened by the fact that you go to such lengths in order to protect this guy.

	12-11-2003 22:15									#27
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He doesn't need protection.
You're barking at the wrong tree if "anti-semitism" is what you accuse him of, IMHO.
BTW I read about this here.
Nothing on the papers, the online onces I've checked.

	12-11-2003 22:22									#28
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Oh, and btw, I really liked the way some people pointed out to me who Mikis Theodorakis was. I chose 'Zorba' for a reason in my thread title.

	12-11-2003 23:00									#29
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That article quoted the following:

quote: We, the Greeks, did not turn aggressive like them because we have more history, today it is possible to say that this small nation is the root of evil. It is full of self-importance and evil stubbornness.

quote: The fact that we are very calm and did not turn aggressive like them is because we have more history. They only have Abraham and Jacob, who were shadows, while we have Pericles. Imagine what would happen in Greece if we were as aggressive as the Jews.

The first quote is a bit of a bold statement maybe, probably mostly because of the heat of the argument or because of his distaste of Israeli politics. I don't see anything wrong with it.

I don't know about the second. Perhaps he's just proud to be Greek? And calling "Jews" "aggressive" really doesn't sound like anti-semitism to me. Besides, in the light of the first quote, I think it's very likely he simply meant Israelis.

quote: 'taken out of context' Isn't that what politicians say to spin their way out of the things they said?

OK, I take that back. The quotes aren't offensive at all, is that better? But still, that one quite possibly subjective news source really isn't enough for me to judge him.

quote: So it's ok to hate all Israelis? oh, gee, and I was worried.

Please... So when you say you hate Palestinians you really mean every single Palestinian, and not just those responsible for the terrorist attacks?

quote: I am really saddened by the fact that you go to such lengths in order to protect this guy.

Anytime. Seriously, the only thing I know about that guy, apart from this article, is what axi and paiktis just said. So I'm pretty sure now that he's just expressing his opinions towards the Israel/Palestine issue here.

Sure, he could have put it more diplomatically, but hey, he's not a politician you know... And there's still something like "freedom of speech".

Oh, and...

quote: That's bullshit. I would like to give you an example of thate.

In case you meant you wanted me to give an example...
The whole Sharon case with Belgium's genocide law springs to mind. Israel jumped onto the Belgian government frothing at the mouth, calling it anti-semitic. I gather they hadn't heard of the separation of power yet?

	12-11-2003 23:16									#30
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I thought you were making fun of Pattycakes, to be honest....