12-11-2003 22:14									#1
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BRAVE NEW SCHOOLS
NYC district denies
birth of Jesus?
Nativity scene barred as not 'historically accurate representation of an event'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: November 12, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern



© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

In a dispute over display of holiday symbols, New York City schools are allowing Jewish menorahs and Islamic crescents but barring Christian nativity scenes, alleging the depiction of the birth of Christ does not represent a historical event.

In pleadings with a federal court in defense of the ban, New York City lawyers asserted the "suggestion that a crèche is a historically accurate representation of an event with secular significance is wholly disingenuous."

The Jewish and Islamic symbols are allowed, the district says, because they have a secular dimension, but the Christian symbols are "purely religious."

Robert J. Muise, who will challenge the school policy at a federal court hearing tomorrow in Brooklyn, told WorldNetDaily be believes most Americans don't see it that way.

"The birth of Jesus is a historical event which serves as the basis for celebration of Christmas," Muise stated. "It's of importance for both Christians and non-Christians."

Muise's Michigan-based Thomas More Law Center filed a motion to temporarily restrain the city from enforcing its ban on nativity scenes. The center asserts New York's policy "promotes the Jewish and Islamic faiths while conveying the impermissible message of disapproval of Christianity in violation of the U.S. Constitution."

The Michigan group says one public-school principal issued a memo encouraging teachers to bring to school "religious symbols" that represent the Islamic and Jewish religions, but made no mention of Christianity.

Jewish menorahs adorned the halls of the school as part of the authorized displays, the More Center said, but students were not allowed to make and similarly display nativity scenes

A parent who wrote a letter of complaint to her son's teacher received a copy of the school's "Holiday Displays" policy in response.

Kate Ahlers, communications director for New York City's law department, says schools can use things that are secular like menorahs, stars and snowflakes, but the crèche is considered religious.

"There is a separation of church and state that is part of the Constitution," she claimed. "It's a clear belief that people try to follow in schools and public office, and schools are saying they adhere to that belief."

The point of schools, she added, "is not to debate religion; the point of schools is to teach children."

The federal civil-rights lawsuit was filed on behalf of Andrea Skoros and her two elementary-school children against the city of New York and several school officials.

Skoros and her children are devout Roman Catholics.

"Can Christianity be erased from a public school?" Muse asked in a statement. "Can 'Christ' be removed from Christmas? We will soon find out."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/a...RTICLE_ID=35544

also...

School bans saying 'christmas'

Christmas in America becomes battleground


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It seems to me that christians are increasingly being discriminated against. Christian traditions are derided and in some cases punished. Is this 'tolerance'?

	12-11-2003 22:18									#2
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Bah! If you want persecution of Christians, look to the Sudan.

	12-11-2003 22:24									#3
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It only counts if it happens in the US.

	12-11-2003 22:28									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia The Jewish and Islamic symbols are allowed, the district says, because they have a secular dimension, but the Christian symbols are "purely religious." It seems to me that christians are increasingly being discriminated against. Christian traditions are derided and in some cases punished. Is this 'tolerance'?

Yes, I do have a problem with this aspect of favoring some religions over others for what appears to be blatant political motivations.


And how can anyone claim that the birth of Jesus Christ is not a historical event, when he was a real person and was born into this world -- regardless if you believe in his role as a religious leader???

Someone explain that to me?

	12-11-2003 22:49									#5
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Can someone show me where the Constitution says that religious symbols are to be banned from public places. Also, Exactly who are the people deciding what is religious and what is secular? I wonder if Jews and Muslims are happy that their symbols are regarded as non religious.

	12-11-2003 22:58									#6
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How is the burning of a Menorah for seven nights on a tiny amount of oil any more historical than say, Jesus feeding the crowds of people until they were full with a fish and a few loaves of bread?

	12-11-2003 23:26									#7
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quote: And how can anyone claim that the birth of Jesus Christ is not a historical event

Christmas is a pagan observance, from the X-mas tree on down to Santa Claus and the yule log. And no serious researcher would claim Jesus was born on Dec 25, a date falling suspiciously ~3 days after the winter solstice as the sun first makes it's northward climb toward spring, the same day as a Roman observance...hmm... I mention this only because many Christians look down their noses at pagans.

My religion involves cannabis, will they let me bring thy holy bong and sacramental bud? Well, I'm sure there are Rastafarians in NY... But their religion has been outlawed by Christians and Christians are complaining about religious persecution? But hey, if it isn't the 10 Commandments it's nativity scenes. When these zealous restorers of the true faith say the depiction of Jesus' birth is not historically accurate, aren't they saying Christianity is somewhat of a false religion? That seems to be message... It doesn't matter if the depiction is an accurate portrayal of the birth of Christ, only that some/most Christians accept it as at least a symbolic if not historical depiction . But by all means, let the city of NY inform Christians everywhere just what would constitute an accurate depiction. Strange position for city bureaucrats to be putting themselves in, they will decide if your religion is historically accurate.

	12-11-2003 23:31									#8
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quote: things that are secular like menorahs,

* Ben Kenobi stirs the pot.

I see no persecution here. Clearly the menorah has absolutely no religious significance or symbolism, and is hence permissible for display in a secular society. Whereas the opposite is true for the Christian nativity scene, in that it has huge religious symbolism in the birth of Christ.



Berz:

What does the historicity of the nativity scene have anything to do with Christmas trees. Secondly, what part of the nativity scene strikes you as particularly ahistorical? I believe that it is an accurate historical account.

3 edits!

	12-11-2003 23:40									#9
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Hey, let's look at this from a different perspective.

What if it wasn't just the banning of nativity scenes? What if those who insisted the nativity scene was accurate were being punished (well, moreso than having their depiction banned)? Perhaps lashed to a rack and stretched (ah, that makes my back feel good). Maybe tied to some wood and set on fire (certainly that warmth would feel good with winter right around the corner).

Yeah yeah, Christians aren't being punished like people were punished during the Inquisition, but that's just a matter of degree. The principle at work here is the same, the state has decided some of us just aren't practicing the faith correctly and need to be "re-educated" on the finer aspects of their religion.

	12-11-2003 23:43									#10
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No one's being persecuted.

The school is showing favoritism towards certain religions (which is wrong, and unconstitutional due to the establishment clause), but it is not persecuting Christians.

	12-11-2003 23:45									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker My religion involves cannabis, will they let me bring thy holy bong and sacramental bud?

	12-11-2003 23:46									#12
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Ben -

quote: Berz: What does the historicity of the nativity scene have anything to do with Christmas trees.

Nothing, just showing how Christmas already relies heavily on pagan symbolism.

quote: Secondly, what part of the nativity scene strikes you as particularly ahistorical? I believe that it is an accurate historical account.

I wasn't there, so I couldn't say. That was my point... NYC lawyers don't know either so their claims of historical accuracy are on it's face.

	12-11-2003 23:47									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo No one's being persecuted. The school is showing favoritism towards certain religions (which is wrong, and unconstitutional due to the establishment clause), but it is not persecuting Christians.

So showing favoritism to every religion other than christianity is not persecuting christians? Okayyy...

	12-11-2003 23:50									#14
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quote: Nothing, just showing how Christmas already relies heavily on pagan symbolism.

Well maybe it's time to clean haus. A nativity scene would seem to counteract many of the pagan traditions of Christmas.

	12-11-2003 23:51									#15
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quote: The school is showing favoritism towards certain religions (which is wrong, and unconstitutional due to the establishment clause), but it is not persecuting Christians.

Let's see, you can bring your religion... but not you guys...
Like I said, no one is being torched on a pyre of wood, but telling people their religion is not valid enough to be displayed is a form of persecution.

	12-11-2003 23:56									#16
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quote: Well maybe it's time to clean haus. A nativity scene would seem to counteract many of the pagan traditions of Christmas.

According to many researchers, the story as interpreted isn't accurate. There is doubt about the Inn and "manger", I can't remember the details off hand, but the image of a barn has been called into question based on the differing translations.

	13-11-2003 00:02									#17
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Ah, so now we see what Berz really believes.

So you do agree that the nativity scenes are ahistorical.

quote: I wasn't there, so I couldn't say.

And now you do know?

	13-11-2003 00:03									#18
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quote: So showing favoritism to every religion other than christianity is not persecuting christians? Okayyy...

It's showing favoritism to two religions other than Christianty, not every other religion. And yes, it isn't. Freedom of religion isn't gone. You can still be Christian. You just can't decorate a few schools a certain way.

When I was in school, I wasn't allowed to put up whatever I wanted all over the building. Did that mean my beliefs were being persecuted?

quote: Let's see, you can bring your religion... but not you guys...

I thought you were fine with that. After all, only Congress is subject to the establishment clause, right? Wasn't that your argument wrt the religious display in front of that court?

quote: Like I said, no one is being torched on a pyre of wood, but telling people their religion is not valid enough to be displayed is a form of persecution.

They're not losing their freedom of religion. This ain't "persecution."

	13-11-2003 00:10									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo It's showing favoritism to two religions other than Christianty, not every other religion.

Judaism and Islam pretty much covers all other major religions in the US.

quote: And yes, it isn't. Freedom of religion isn't gone. You can still be Christian. You just can't decorate a few schools a certain way.

Persecution is characterized by discrimination. In this case, the christians are being discriminated against.

quote: When I was in school, I wasn't allowed to put up whatever I wanted all over the building. Did that mean my beliefs were being persecuted?

If everyone else was allowed to, then yes.

	13-11-2003 00:29									#20
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quote: Secondly, what part of the nativity scene strikes you as particularly ahistorical? I believe that it is an accurate historical account.

The shed (I don't know which word is used in the English bible) at Betlehem was definitely not as depicted, as archeologists say. Medieval artists just read the bible and imagined a shed how they knew it, but it was something really different back then. It was more like a hut, where men and animals usually lived together, so staying there was not uncommon (like sleeping where the animals are supposed to sleep is).

BTW., serving as the turning point of our year-calculation - not only for Christians but all of us - the birth of Christ is of enourmous importance, no matter what day (or year) it exactly was.

That said, society is getting completely neurotic about religion. Why should people celebrating a holiday should offend anyone?

	13-11-2003 00:46									#21
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Ben -

quote: Ah, so now we see what Berz really believes.

You do? Please tell me because I'm not even sure what I believe.

quote: So you do agree that the nativity scenes are ahistorical.

I don't know, I wasn't there. Isn't that what I said the last time you asked?

quote: And now you do know?

Nope, and neither do you, and neither do the NYC lawyers who are claiming the nativity depictions are inaccurate.

	13-11-2003 00:51									#22
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Oops, edited

	13-11-2003 01:12									#23
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quote: © 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

Uh-huh...

quote: And how can anyone claim that the birth of Jesus Christ is not a historical event

There are good reasosns to doubt that Jesus was a historical figure, and various people who claim that he was entirely mythical (the "Jesus-mythers"). Naturally, an ahistorical Jesus would not have been historically born at all. So there's some for you.

Furthermore, as discussed previously around here, there is good reason to believe that the whole Nativity story was a later addition tacked-on to the NT anyhow. Even many Christians do not consider the Nativity scene to be historically accurate.

	13-11-2003 01:15									#24
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The NY case is not about the state displaying religious symbols during the winter solstice. It is about the state permitting the people to display their religious symbols - with the exception of the Christians. I would think it would be a violation of the free exercise clause to ban religious displays during a religion's holidays. But that issue is not squarely presented. However, I think it is a blatant and outrageous violation of the free exercise clause to permit all religions to have their displays and deny the same privilege to Christians.

Don't be fooled by the "secular" nature issue. This is a ruse. All the displays are religious to the people making the displays.

In another thread, I noted that the president of the ACLU some time ago decided to take on Christmas. What you are seeing here appears to be the first fruit of her labors.

Down with the ACLU!

	13-11-2003 01:16									#25
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I don't see how the star of David or the crescent and star represents a historical event.

	13-11-2003 01:43									#26
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It disgusts me that it's ok to display symbols for one religion in a public place but not another. Where is the Freedom of Religion in the USA. You can display any religious symbol you want in the USA as long as it is not christian.

This my friends is fascism at it's best. When they came for the gypsies, I did nothing because I am not a gypsie. When they came for the Jews I did nothing because I am not Jewish. When they came for the alternative lifestylers I did nothing because I am not gay. When they came for me they got me because there was no one left to save me.

If you want my honest opinion it's probably best not to display any religious symbols in public period. Doesn't matter whether said religion is secular or more spiritual. In USA you cannot say anything, do anything, believe in anything and make it public knowledge, without offending someone or some group. Then they take your rights away. We are slowly descending into a totalitarian state. You may call me whatever name you wish in the book but I am not going to sit idly by. I will speak up as long as I have breath in my lungs and as long as there is free speach in USA. I hate the people who hate others and wish to take away their freedoms.

	13-11-2003 04:05									#27
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Berz:

You either have authority or you don't. Makes no sense to claim you have no authority, and then to go and tell me how it is.

Wernazuma:

quote: The shed (I don't know which word is used in the English bible) at Betlehem was definitely not as depicted, as archeologists say. Medieval artists just read the bible and imagined a shed how they knew it, but it was something really different back then.

Stable is the word you are looking for, where they used to house animals. Hasn't changed that much.

Jack:

Well, that's another discussion entirely. If you don't believe in a historical Jesus, than of course you are not going to believe in the Nativity.

Why don't you start another thread?

	13-11-2003 05:09									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Stable is the word you are looking for, where they used to house animals. Hasn't changed that much.

In the BBC documentary I've seen (quite some time ago), it was said, that in those buildings which have been translated as stable, there was a part, where humans slept and one where the animals slept under one roof.

	13-11-2003 05:10									#29
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Probably they had a hayloft, up over the entire stable. You see these on some farms today with big stables.

	13-11-2003 05:40									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Christmas is a pagan observance, from the X-mas tree on down to Santa Claus and the yule log. And no serious researcher would claim Jesus was born on Dec 25, a date falling suspiciously ~3 days after the winter solstice as the sun first makes it's northward climb toward spring, the same day as a Roman observance...hmm... I mention this only because many Christians look down their noses at pagans. My religion involves cannabis, will they let me bring thy holy bong and sacramental bud? Well, I'm sure there are Rastafarians in NY... But their religion has been outlawed by Christians and Christians are complaining about religious persecution? But hey, if it isn't the 10 Commandments it's nativity scenes. When these zealous restorers of the true faith say the depiction of Jesus' birth is not historically accurate, aren't they saying Christianity is somewhat of a false religion? That seems to be message... It doesn't matter if the depiction is an accurate portrayal of the birth of Christ, only that some/most Christians accept it as at least a symbolic if not historical depiction . But by all means, let the city of NY inform Christians everywhere just what would constitute an accurate depiction. Strange position for city bureaucrats to be putting themselves in, they will decide if your religion is historically accurate.

Hey super genius -- I was not talking about the DATE that Jesus Christ was born. But if we Christians have chosen a date based on traditons and custom, there is no harm with that.

MY QUESTION WAS

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how can people claim that Jesus was never born at all -- it WAS an actual historic event, regardless of WHEN it happened.


And saying that "Christians are being persecuted" is sensationalizing this incident. But clearly, Christians are being pushed into the mud while the jerks leave Muslim and Jewish symbols to shine.