14-11-2003 00:30									#91
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You don't think the events in the gospel are mythologized at all? No exaggeration whatsoever?

How is the calendar changing proof of the historicity of Jesus? Hmm, when did the calendar change? How many hundreds of years after Jesus's life?

And it's wrong, according to theologians, by as much as 6 years!

So were Roman institutions based on the legends of their gods proof of their existence? Oh, there's a planet named Mars--he must be real!

	14-11-2003 00:37									#92
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No Boris. Western civilization is not wrong and you and other fanatical atheists are right. There was a Jesus even if you prefer that there was not.

	14-11-2003 00:40									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why did the church accept these authors for their Gospels if they knew them to be falsely attributed?

Politics.

In the 2nd Century A.D. church there was an ideological war between the Orthodox and the Gnostics. To admit that the cannonical Gospels were falsely attributed would have been backing down befoer the Gnostic "threat" to the established Church hierarchy.

If they weren't atributed to those whom they were supposed to be attributed, then what suerior claim would they have to say, The Gospel of Mary Magdelene, The Apocalypse of Peter, the Gospel of Thomas,[i] etc.? If the etablished church could be wrong about something so fundimental, what else could they be wrong about? This was a serious threat during the period of [i]real persecution of Christians.

The Orthodox position was that Christ died bodily and was resurrected bodily. Orthodox Christians were to emulate this, and if prosecuted, confess their faith (in the real meaning of the word confession and not the confession of faith we have now days) and be bodily executed like their savior. Many of the Gnostics, on the other hand, believed that Christ was divine in nature only, thus his death was symbolic. There was no martyrdom to emulate, and Christians should save their life and give unto Ceaser what is Caeser's, since it means nothing.

It's really a very fascinating period of Christian history. Interestingly enough, one of the major authors for the Orthodox position, Tertellius, ends up later opposing the Church hierarchy because they selected a bishop he felt was unqualified (I think he wanted the position).

	14-11-2003 00:41									#94
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Blah blah blah, Lincoln.

Remember that a good majority of the world have believed at some point that Marduk, Zeus, Osiris, or some other such deity existed. Are they all true because of popular conceit?

I've never asserted Jesus didn't exist, merely that I think it's a reasonable position. I am wholely undecided on the issue. I'd love to see your evidence for it that doesn't rely on hearsay.

Just because you really want something to be true doesn't make it true. See how that works both ways?

Keep fishing.

BTW, don't dodge the question--do you believe eveything attributed in the Bible to Jesus is 100% accurate, or is their some mythologizing?

	14-11-2003 00:46									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Right. The calendar was changed because of a myth.

Why not? Some months and days are named after myths. See, normal emperors don't get months named after them. But the gods, Julius and Augustus did. Tyr, Wodan, Thor, Frey, and Saturn all had days named after them, as well as the sun and moon, both gods in their own right.

The holiday Easter is named for the Cannanite fertility goddess, Aster, aka, Astarte, aka Ishtar.

	14-11-2003 00:48									#96
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ISHTAR MUST BE REAL!!!

	14-11-2003 00:48									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov ISHTAR MUST BE REAL!!!

It is, and it's a very bad movie!

	14-11-2003 00:49									#98
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If there's a Hell, I'm sure its being shown there 24-7.

	14-11-2003 00:53									#99
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I believe that Jesus performed miracles. I don't believe that anything is mythology but the text must be taken in context with regard to analogy and metaphor.

And several thousand years of Christian persecution including that which took place shortly after the death of Jesus was not because of a mythical creature that deceived the whole world. Even the persecutors of Christians did not deny his existence although some thought he was not a true prophet.

	14-11-2003 00:57									#100
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Which Christian persecution is this? Surely you don't mean Nero's purported persecution?

Besides, persecution of religious sects prove nothing. Christianity was but one of many religious groups that were persecuted at some point or another. And Christianity went on to get its own back by persecuting millions in other religions over its 2,000 year history. Multitudes of slaughtered Jews, Muslims, Hindus, pagans, etc. are testament to that.

The martyrdom complex rides again...

	14-11-2003 00:59									#101
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Several thousand years of Christian persecution? Unless you're counting Christians being persecuted by other Christians . . . ???

	14-11-2003 01:10									#102
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First it all must be true because the majority of the Western world is Christian and might makes right, but then it must be true because Christians are an eternally persecuted, downtrodden sect. Such scattershot arguments, tsk!

	14-11-2003 01:15									#103
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You are welcome to deny the obvious. Most fanatics do that so help yourselves. Maybe you can make a new calendar and change the dates on coins to reflect your new found reality.

	14-11-2003 01:17									#104
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I believe Jesus was real because his teachings were so spiritually advanced that no normal human could have conceived of them.

Having said that, I don't believe that his purpose here was to appease an angry God through blood sacrifice.

	14-11-2003 01:22									#105
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Several thousand years of Christian persecution? Unless you're counting Christians being persecuted by other Christians . . . ???

True Christians do not persecute anyone, so yes, I am talking also about "Christians" persecuting Christians, Jews and whoever else was handy.

	14-11-2003 01:28									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln You are welcome to deny the obvious. Most fanatics do that so help yourselves. Maybe you can make a new calendar and change the dates on coins to reflect your new found reality.

If it's so obvious, where's evidence? We've asked many times.

Yes, I'm such a fanatical atheist that I don't belong to any atheist organizations, I don't subscribe to any atheist journals or publications, I don't sit for hours every week among an atheist fellowship, I don't go out and protest religious functions of any kind, I don't lecture or speak on atheism, and I really don't discuss it with anyone aside from a few folks on a message board.

Woo, look at that ardent fanatacism, phew.

Meanwhile, you seem fit include anti-atheist links in your signature and revile them at every moment. Yes, I'm beginning to see something that's obvious...

Gee, I bet if I included a link that said "The Blind Christian" that went to an anti-Christian site with false rhetoric like your own, you'd accuse me of persecuting you. See, only Christians are allowed to have martyr complexes...

	14-11-2003 01:37									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln True Christians do not persecute anyone, so yes, I am talking also about "Christians" persecuting Christians, Jews and whoever else was handy.

You're such a hypocrite.

And apparently, by your own rationale, not a Christian, as you're blatantly guilty of "persecuting" atheists. Welcome to the world of being an oppressor!

	14-11-2003 01:40									#108
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The truth hurts doesn't if Boris? I have watched you for several months take every opportunity to ridicule Christianity and you are trying to convince me that you are not a fanatic? And now you even deny that Jesus existed contrary to people (atheists included) from every quarter of this planet including those who despise his name. And I am supposed to think that you are a moderate? Give me a break.

	14-11-2003 01:41									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You're such a hypocrite. And apparently, by your own rationale, not a Christian, as you're blatantly guilty of "persecuting" atheists. Welcome to the world of being an oppressor!

I don't see how disagreeing with atheists means you are persecuting them. You're getting a bit carried away Boris.

	14-11-2003 01:42									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You're such a hypocrite. And apparently, by your own rationale, not a Christian, as you're blatantly guilty of "persecuting" atheists. Welcome to the world of being an oppressor!

Poor baby. I am so sorry for persecuting you.

	14-11-2003 01:48									#111
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Where is all the evidence ?

	14-11-2003 01:57									#112
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It's really cool how you can define away the misdeeds of Christians by saying that they aren't "true" Christians. Man, I wish that worked for us "true" communists.

	14-11-2003 02:01									#113
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Well it does che. I would never think you capable of some of the atrocities of some well known "communists" for example.

	14-11-2003 02:01									#114
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I can be true to my Christian beliefs, and still acknowledge the horrendous crimes that other Christians have committed.

However, those Christians had a very different theological worldview than that of contemporary Christians.

Oh, and DD and Boris -- I apologized for the "moron" insult -- stop crying to mommy and get over it.

	14-11-2003 02:22									#115
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So Boris -- is this the evidence that you mentioned as being nothing but a hoax??

False or real evidence?

	14-11-2003 02:27									#116
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This site has more obvious bias in favor of Jesus Christ, but how do you deal with the historical rising of persecutions of Christians that arose from Jesus Christ's own execution??

Credible evidence, or not??

	14-11-2003 02:43									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Cookie Monster If you want my honest opinion it's probably best not to display any religious symbols in public period. Doesn't matter whether said religion is secular or more spiritual. In USA you cannot say anything, do anything, believe in anything and make it public knowledge, without offending someone or some group. Then they take your rights away. We are slowly descending into a totalitarian state. You may call me whatever name you wish in the book but I am not going to sit idly by. I will speak up as long as I have breath in my lungs and as long as there is free speach in USA. I hate the people who hate others and wish to take away their freedoms.

My honest opinion also. The ACLU should be fighting to get rid of the minorah and the crescent as well.

Jesus, IMO was an important historical figure, Christmas an important holiday, but public celebration of either is not the role of public schools, education is. Celebration of religious holidays and events are the rights of families and churches. We cannot have Ramadan observed in public schools, so Christians should be happy that Christmas is given a laissez faire attitude, when it comes to the way public schools handle it.

This reminds me of Judge Moore's speech today, in which he said "....We cannot have the hypocrisy of starting the day with may god bless this court, but then not acknowledge God..." Well, he is right, but I think the real constitutional solution would not make him any more satisfied. Christians should be happy so many of their traditions are still allowed in school.

	14-11-2003 02:55									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln The truth hurts doesn't if Boris? I have watched you for several months take every opportunity to ridicule Christianity and you are trying to convince me that you are not a fanatic?

Lie #1. Show me where I've "ridiculed" Christianity. I've disagreed with some here, but I've not mocked Christian tenets or beliefs. Hell, in a thread a month ago I was defending the teachings ascribed to Jesus as being among the best moral philosophy in the world. So much for "truth" from you.

quote: And now you even deny that Jesus existed contrary to people (atheists included) from every quarter of this planet including those who despise his name.

Lie #2. As I said above, I've never denied he existed--I've only said I'm uncertain as to the truth and have defended the rationale of those who do believe such from ad hominem attacks such as your own. Instead of accepting that it's a legitimate point of view, you instead choose to lash out against that view because it wounds your fragile world view. Tough.

Oh, and you know it's a basica fallacy to assert that because a lot of people believe something to be true, it is ergo true, right? Remember when most people believed the sun revolved around the earth or it was on the back of a turtle and such?

quote: And I am supposed to think that you are a moderate? Give me a break.

Of course you don't, because you're a fanatic who doesn't brook contrary ideas to your own, so any disagreement with you simply MUST be borne of irrationality. Hypocrisy once again.

	14-11-2003 02:58									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I don't see how disagreeing with atheists means you are persecuting them. You're getting a bit carried away Boris.

First, it was really just turning the tables on Lincoln. He thinks disagreeing with Christians is tantamount to persecuting them.

Second, read the link. It's not disagreeing with atheists, it's stereotyping, demonizing and attacking them. Big difference. Of course, he doesn't see that, since he has an inhereit double standard.

	14-11-2003 03:00									#120
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun So Boris -- is this the evidence that you mentioned as being nothing but a hoax?? False or real evidence?

False, MrFun. Keep up on current events:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0619/p07s01-wome.html

"The first archeological link to Jesus - a stone box said to hold the bones of his brother James - and a tablet detailing repairs to the ancient Jewish Temple are fakes, say officials of the Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA)."

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