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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
First, it was really just turning the tables on Lincoln. He thinks disagreeing with Christians is tantamount to persecuting them.
Second, read the link. It's not disagreeing with atheists, it's stereotyping, demonizing and attacking them. Big difference. Of course, he doesn't see that, since he has an inhereit double standard. |
I took a quick look at the link in his sig, and it doesn't seem to be a vicious attack in any way. To me it looks like a book that uses science to show why atheists are wrong.
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Lincoln
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Oh now wer're talking about turtles and and the sun revolving around the earth. Your types are so predictable. And I am glad to hear that you ascribe good teachings to a mythical creature. How generous of you. Hope you can get over the persecution.
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Lincoln
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
I took a quick look at the link in his sig, and it doesn't seem to be a vicious attack in any way. To me it looks like a book that uses science to show why atheists are wrong. |
I wrote the book. The title was a play on Richard Dawkin's "The Blind Watchmaker". Of course some see that as persecution but that was not my intention when I titled the book.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln
I wrote the book. The title was a play on Richard Dawkin's "The Blind Watchmaker". Of course some see that as persecution but that was not my intention when I titled the book. |
You wrote it? Well done, it looks like it took a lot of research. The excerpts I read were interesting.
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Lincoln
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
First, it was really just turning the tables on Lincoln. He thinks disagreeing with Christians is tantamount to persecuting them.
Second, read the link. It's not disagreeing with atheists, it's stereotyping, demonizing and attacking them. Big difference. Of course, he doesn't see that, since he has an inhereit double standard. |
Let's see. How did you put it? Oh yeah, Lie#1...
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Lincoln
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
You wrote it? Well done, it looks like it took a lot of research. The excerpts I read were interesting. |
It did take a lot of research. And the preface explains the difference between a fanatical atheist and those who honesty hold that belief for whatever reason. I also point out the delusion of certain fanatical Christians so I tried to be fair but I was obviously trying to counter the claims of people like Dawkins.
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Lincoln
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Yeah, some fanatical atheist hacked the page.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln
It did take a lot of research. And the preface explains the difference between a fanatical atheist and those who honesty hold that belief for whatever reason. I also point out the delusion of certain fanatical Christians so I tried to be fair but I was obviously trying to counter the claims of people like Dawkins. |
It certainly looks interesting...I'll take a look at the sample chapters.
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Lincoln
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Yeah. At least the guy has a sense of humor. The guy should be on TV!
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln
Well it does che. I would never think you capable of some of the atrocities of some well known "communists" for example. |
Two things. While I would like to think I'm not capable of such things, the truth is, it's hard know until you are in the situation. Perfectly loving, rational, humane people can, under the right circumstances, become monsters. There have been several psychological experiments, from Milgram's 37 to the prisoners and guards experiments which show how far people are willing to go under the "right" set of circumstances.
The flip side is, while I don't think of Stalinists and Maoists as "true" communists, they, in fact, are truer communists than I, because they have redefined the meaning of the word by their actions. Communism is as communism does. So Reds like me need to recapture, through praxis, the original communist movement and meaning.
The same is true for Christians. Christianity is defined by its history and by its adherents and by its victims. Your struggle, therefore, isn't with atheists and other "anti-Christians," but with the Christian religion itself. Until you can get Christians to break with their hateful ways towards other human beings, how can you expect the rest of us to trust you?
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NeOmega
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Play Pentagenesis Beta!
Feb 2002
time: 21:32
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If it were presented from a different angle, I most definitley would be interested. However, trying to equate the Christian god with intelligent design, is which my impression of "Lincoln" may be wrong, but it seems that is what he is inferencing, is where the my desire to know what is in this book ends.
Secondly, it says it is trying to fly in the face of scientific theory, but that is simply untrue, perhaps scientific theory of the 1970's but over time, the theory of intelligent design has not been completely denied by scientists, it has just not in any way been proven, therefore not endorsed.
Thirdly, IMO, chaos theroy and chance seems to be permeating all fields of scientific theory, down to quantum mechanics, which makes me wonder if this "happening of chance" has been embraced so wholeheartedly as to make it almost the religious or philosophical basis from which all other theory arises. I for one am far from convinced of the validity of the big bang theory, beause that seems to me to be an attempt to "humanize" or "chronotize" apossibly infinite phenomen known as existance. To me the Big Bang is just the irreligious layman's Genesis.
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Lincoln
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quote:
Originally posted by NeOmega
If it were presented from a different angle, I most definitley would be interested. However, trying to equate the Christian god with intelligent design, is which my impression of "Lincoln" may be wrong, but it seems that is what he is inferencing, is where the my desire to know what is in this book ends.
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Actually the subjects are seperated in the book. Intelligent design does not imply any particular creator.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
I took a quick look at the link in his sig, and it doesn't seem to be a vicious attack in any way. To me it looks like a book that uses science to show why atheists are wrong. |
My mistake. I had wrongly assumed it was a link to his similarly-titled essay here.
The pattern, however is unmistakable. He has an axe to grind, and grind away he does.
quote:
Oh now wer're talking about turtles and and the sun revolving around the earth. Your types are so predictable. And I am glad to hear that you ascribe good teachings to a mythical creature. How generous of you. Hope you can get over the persecution. |
Guess what, Lincoln? Your predictable, irrelevant pleadings that since a majority of people believe something it must obviously be true don't warrant any better response. Come up with something more substantial, and we'll see what happens. But all you've offered so far are petty snipes.
As for the teachings of a "mythical creature," so what if Jesus turns out not to have been real? It wouldn't invalidate his philosophy. I don't need some long-haired hippy to have walked the earth to see that something like "love thy neighbor" is a great moral tenet. As is too often the case with the hardcore Christians, they value the man more than the message. I think the reverse is what's more important.
And obviously whomever came up with those tenets, whether it was Jesus or not, isn't mythical, since the tenets exist! Another pointless snipe.
quote:
Boris -- what about the link to the second website I provided??
How do you explain the historical waves of executions of Christian leaders that increased immediately from Jesus Christ's own execution?? |
Wait...who was executed and when, and what substantiation is there for them? The site claims disciples were martyred, but the sources are from a long time after the events supposedly occured. There's no record among the Romans or Jews of these things happening, and Seutonius flat out denies the stories that Nero subjected Christians to such horrible tortures (and Seutonius was no fan of Nero).
Regardless, so what if people were martyred? People have been martyred for every religious faith--does that mean their stories or claims are true? Of course not. No one's denied that there has been fanatically devout Christians who've died for their cause. Today, we see fanatically devout Muslims dying for what they believe. That's proof of a certain human mental state, not anything else.
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Lincoln
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Here is a few snippets that shed some light on the existence of Jesus and the persecution of Christians in case anyone is interested:
The Talmud ("teaching" or "study") is a multi-volume compilation containing the Mishnah (oral legal teachings) and Jewish commentary on the Mishnah (Gemara). The accepted version was compiled by Rabbis Akiba (died AD 135) and Meir and completed by Rabbi Judah in AD 200.
"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu [Jesus] was hanged. . . but since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover." Babylonia Sanhedrin 43A
Flavius Josephus (AD 37-97), was born into a priestly Jewish family. He was a Pharisee and a historian for the Roman empire. He wrote several famous works: "Antiquities of the Jews" and the "Wars of the Jews."
"Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was a doer of surprising feats - a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day." Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3.
Authencity of Josephus:
A number of recent liberal scholars have stated that Josephus' reference to Christ is a forgery. This is a significant but unproven statement since no one can produce a single ancient copy of Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews that does not refer to Christ in positive terms. The notable exception is one Syrian document which was produced by the Hebrew University in Jerusalem.
Quite a few authors referred to the above excerpt from the writings of Josephus including:
Celsus
Eusebius
Ambrose
Hieronym
Isidorus Pelusiota
Sozomen
Cassiodorus
Anastasius
Photius
Cedrenus
Zonaras
Gotfridus
Platina de Vitis
This is a partial list which dates from AD 250 to 1480. They are written in different languages and come from various countries, including Russia and Arabic countries. Altering an official Roman document would have been very difficult as long as Rome was in power. The archives could have been checked at any time. Then to have altered multiple copies that were in distribution in other countries and different languages would have been even more problematic. What is interesting is that the wording is identical from document to document. The rest of Josephus' statements, even about John the Baptist, are accepted as historically accurate. So why are Josephus' statements about Jesus the only exception?
Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 AD) has been called the greatest historian on ancient Rome. He lived during the reign of several Roman emperors and was a Roman historian and a governor of Asia [Turkey] in AD 112. He wrote two major works: Annals and the Histories.
"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures a class hated for their abominations, people called Christians by the populace. Christus [Christ], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [AD 14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate. But the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also." Annals 15.44.
Pontius Pilate (1 BC - circa AD 37) was the fifth Roman procurator of Judea (AD 26 - 36 ), under Emperor Tiberius, who sentenced Jesus to death by crucifixion. The quotes below refer to the Acts of Pontius Pilate, a document now missing. Its existence is strongly supported by Epiphanius (Heresies 50.1), Justin Martyr (First Apology) and Tertullian (Apology).
"'At His coming the lame will leap as a deer, and the stammering tongue will clearly speak: the blind will see, and the lepers will be healed; and the dead will rise, and walk.' And that He did those things, you can learn from the Acts of Pontius Pilate." First Apology 48.
'''They pierced my hands and my feet,' was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were driven into His hands and feet. And. . . they cast lots for His clothes, and after they crucified Him distributed it among them. And that these things did happen , you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.' First Apology 35.
Gaius Suetonius Tranquilla was a Roman historian (AD 117-138) under Hadrian (AD 76-138). He was also the secretary of state and authored a book entitled Life of Claudius.
"Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome]." Life of Claudius.
"Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief." Life of Claudius.
Emperor Trajan (AD 53 - 117), Imperator Caesar Divi Nervae Filius Nerva Traianus, was one of the most famous Roman emperors of all time. His reputation as a successful military strategist is demonstrated by his military exploits which expanded the Roman boundaries to the Persian Gulf. The quote below is a reply to Pliny, who had asked for directions in how to treat the Christians.
"The method you have used, my dear Pliny, in investigating the cases of those who are accused of being Christians is extremely proper. No search should be made for these people; when they are accused and found to be guilty they must be punished; with the restriction, however, that when the individual denies he is a Christian, and gives proof that he is not (that is, by adoring our gods) he shall be pardoned on the ground of repentance, even though he may have formerly incurred suspicion. Documents without the accuser's signature must not be admitted in evidence against anyone, since this introduces a very dangerous precedent, and is by no means consistent with the spirit of the age." Pliny letters X, 97.
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who lived at least 73 years after Jesus Christ. He left a legacy manuscript, a letter, written to his son Serapion. The letter is now in the possession of the British Museum.
"What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?. . . after that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men. . . the wise king. . . lived on in the teachings he enacted."
Phlegon was a historian who lived in the first century. There are two books credited to his name: Chronicles and the Olympiads. Little is known about Phlegon but he made reference to Christ. The first two quotes are unique to Origen and the last quote below is recorded by Origen and Philopon.
Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions."
Origen Against Celsus
"And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified and the great earthquakes which then took place . . . ” Origen Against Celsus
"Phlegon mentioned the eclipse which took place during the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus and no other (eclipse); it is clear that he did not know from his sources about any (similar) eclipse in previous times . . . and this is shown by the historical account of Tiberius Caesar." De. opif. mund. II21
Lucian of Samosata lived during the second century. He was a satirist who was scornful of Christians. He wrote several books: The Passing Peregrinus and Alexander the False Prophet.
"The Christians. . . worship a man to this day - the distinguished personage who introduced this new cult, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains their contempt for death and self devotion . . . their lawgiver [taught] they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take on faith . . . " The Passing Peregrinus
Of course the evidence of the existence of Jesus and persecution of Christians from the several writers of the New Testament is not included here.
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Theben
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Dance Dance for the Revolution!
Jan 1970
time: 00:32
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quote:
And no serious researcher would claim Jesus was born on Dec 25, a date falling suspiciously ~3 days after the winter solstice as the sun first makes it's northward climb toward spring, the same day as a Roman observance... |
More importantly, Dec. 25 was the birthday for a pagan god that was commonly celebrated. I think the date had more to do with Paul's PR job than any historical record.
EDIT:"The great saviour and god of the Persians, Mithras, is also believed to have been born on the 25th of December long before the coming of Jesus."
Last edited by Theben on 14-11-2003 at 06:36
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:32
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Theben, yes, Paul et al apparently found it easier to spread their religion by adopting pagan beliefs and observances. But this raises the question as to what else in the NT had a pagan origin. So much of what has been attributed to Jesus had pagan precedents so even if we accept Jesus as a real person, how do we separate him from the pagan beliefs of the time? We have this problem with the OT too because many early events described in the Bible, like the Serpent and the Garden and Eve's formation from a "rib" also have paganistic origins that make much more sense...
quote:
Many of the Gnostics, on the other hand, believed that Christ was divine in nature only, thus his death was symbolic. There was no martyrdom to emulate, and Christians should save their life and give unto Ceaser what is Caeser's, since it means nothing. |
There's irony for you, this has happened in other parts of the world. The Aztecs had myths of creation etc deriving from earlier cultures like (or through) the Toltecs. How far back these legends go is unknown, but they may go back to the Olmecs and their predecessors. And one of these myths dealt with an Earth that had stopped spinning, or should I say, the sky had ceased revolving overhead. The "sons" of the creator were told one of them had to throw himself into the sun to start everything back in motion. They were afraid but one finally agreed and "sacrificed" himself. So what did the Aztecs conclude from this myth? They had to sacrifice humans to keep everything in motion; after all, if a son of god could sacrifice himself for the world, certainly humans should be sacrificed to ensure everything keeps moving...
The Aztecs, like the Christian martyrs, took a spiritual/celestial story about "sacrifice" literally with unfortunate results. However, in the case of the Christian martyrs, what they did actually advanced their religion even if that was not their goal. Many Romans saw their courage and strength and became Christians...
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Urban Ranger
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Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic
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quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln
A number of recent liberal scholars have stated that Josephus' reference to Christ is a forgery. This is a significant but unproven statement since no one can produce a single ancient copy of Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews that does not refer to Christ in positive terms. |
You must be kidding. No manuscripts of the Antiquites before 4th century AD have the two passages, that's why scholars suspect that they were later interpolations.
quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln
"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures a class hated for their abominations, people called Christians by the populace. Christus [Christ], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [AD 14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate. But the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also." Annals 15.44. |
Christus does not mean Christ.
quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln
"Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome]." Life of Claudius. |
Chrestus does not mean Christ.
quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln
Pliny letters X, 97. |
Pliny the Younger? 
[Rest of unverified "evidence" snipped]
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Christus does not mean Christ.
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In this passage it would be rediculous to assert otherwise
and it would be rediculous to assert so for Chrestus as well (causing jews problems arround that time? probably the dude who is refered to as doing that in the ninle)
you seem to beleive that Christianity sprang into the minds of the people we have the first rights from, rather than assuming what is reasonable (that the writings were based off of something earlier)
you have a far bigger axe to grind than any Christian on this site
Jon Miller
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14-11-2003 03:02
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