25-11-2003 06:59									#1
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I'm gonna try and get us out in front of the wave here... and also collect our thinking in one place.

OVERALL STRATEGY

Well, we are getting there. We have RP's cooperation and Lego's approval, IF we can cut a deal with GoW.

If we can't? Hell, I dunno. I am finally tempted to pull back from Bob, keeping RP in N. Stormia, and offering OURSELVES as mercs to either ND or GoW!!

DIPLOMACY

The crux with GoW, to me at least, is the negotiation of territory below the jungle on Bob.

I don;t want to give it to them... considering especially that we will be sacrificing part of the territory towards the re-building of Spain, we need every square inch we can get. I wish Aeson, Dominae, or Nathan were around to help determine how much we need... I have just been eye-balling it.

In terms of the Alamo and Pamplona: I'd like to put the issue on the table with GoW... is it saltpeter they are after? If that's the primary reason, can't we otherwise deal with the issue via trade?

From a military perspective, it would make more sense to me for them to want to capture the nearby ND cities as military bases, and sweep north, while we use the Alamo and Pamplona to sweep south.

Let's just put that on the table, and see how they respond... we need to start talking about military coordination in any case.

If the above won;t fly, then we need to get into a discussion of GoW supplying us with needed resources (e.g., SP... we think).

Lego's continued build-up concerns me... CH, was that a score screenie or strength? We need to keep the pressure on in terms of their cooperation with our deal with GoW... we need to have a chat or communique with Nimitz just to formally close the loop. Possibly a formal agreement? Make them happy in terms of 'balance' on Bob?

THE NORTH

Assuming we cut a GoW deal, our biggest constraint is the lack of transports. We currently have 8 Galleys in the area, and a total of 26 units. One Galley is headed north from WW (I think... not sure if CH did that). Depending on how things play out, I'd suggest: a) moving the forward stack of Knights and Pikes 2 to the mountain, b) moving the Galleys 12 to the hills6, c) unloading everything currently in transport to the hills, d) moving the Galleys back 8, and finally, the following turn, e) loading the first wave Knights and Pikes.

Attack along ND's eastern hills. What to do with the Galleys after that?

THE SOUTH

I'd like to capture Pamplona. I suspect there are AWs about, and we just haven't been thinking enough of the 3-move threat. Do we know what RP has built there? Walls? Barracks, I assume.

Hmmm... maybe Pamplona is not such a great idea. Even BETTER would be the Alamo... consolidate all of our Knights there (walls, hill), and then we have a straight shot at Merida!!

A big military question: Are we strong enough to play our part? I liked CH's idea of more efficiently directing funds at GoW's military, but should we continue to focus on military build-up for now? Knights? Pikes? I assume that funding GoW contra-indicates cuttin our iron.

On a related note, correct me if wrong, but we need to address supplying GoW with iron.

OTHER AREAS

Our east coast: I'd like to see at least 3 Galleys on picket duty there... what I haven't thought through is the whole WC screening concept. How many WCs do we need?

ALLIES

We need to know from RP:
* What has been built in Pamplona.
* What units they have left on Bob, and what should we - mutually - do with them.
* What they'd like to name the cities on N. Stormia (presumably we will rename them after re-taking possession), and what they would like the new cities on Bob to be named (we can do that off the bat).
* What they would find acceptable as a) territory and b) # of cities on Bob when re-built.

ECONOMY AND SCIENCE

I recommend we re-think this whole FP transfer idea. It is going to be a loooong time before having an FP in Elipolis and a Palace on Bob is effective. Actually, let me re-state that: Getting a Palace onto Bob ASAP makes all the sense in the world... but that's not when we want the FP to be moved!!

I'd suggest having Elipolis focus on some interim builds.

Oh, and btw, we need a city re-naming scheme, inclusive of temporary Spanish names!

Also, we need to put some real thought into the future of Bob: city placement, number of Workers and an improvement plan, etc. Do we want to keep Sirocco, and for how long?

As stated earlier, I am not confident that we will get Invention (much less Gunpowder!) from our diplo machinations, so I think the research spigot needs to be turned back on.
__________________

I am going to jot some of these thoughts down in the appropriate threads... hopefully some of the team can grapple with individual tasks.

	25-11-2003 14:47									#2
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TECH

When Aggie was asked in the chat what he thought of the Cash-for Upgrades plan he said it was "very helpful". He didn't at the time say that they had a problem the final clause, which was us recieving the tech. Maybe that'll will be a second-level objection should the current two be resolved for them.

WORKERS

If we have to think about resource disconnection & reconnection we should assign & possibly rename workers to be available in the right place to re-road.

BOB

I'd love to know what the original plans were for how many cities we envisaged on Bob. GoW's claims seem to leave about two cities each for GS and RP. I'm wondering whether some tile counting is in order. It's a shame the economic specialists have all left. Alexman could tell us how many cities we need.

I expect that GoW don't want us having a palace on Bob, which is partly why they want to squeeze us into a small fishing village or two on the coast. It doesn't seem worth having a palace over there without a decent number of cities with it to compensate for the loss of EotS.

FP

Was the plan then to disband the FP city too and rebuild in Eliopolis? In the retreat-to-Stormia scenario we wouldn't want to do that.

DIPLOMACY

I'm also wondering about alternative peace plans for GoW. We should try and arrange a chat with Roleplay. Togas is in PST, so it's difficult for me time-zone-wise, but I would like to know they'd rather (a) fight and die at Pamplona, (b) end the war by leaving Bob. If GoW demand too high a price in terms of land then they lose their chance of getting most of Bob and getting rid of ND. They obviously have attractive alternatives.

It's been fun, but I'm exhausted, and would happily let Roleplay choose their destiny, return to Stormia to build Universities and leave GoW and ND to decide who gets what on Bob. As a plan-B peace, and if RP don't mind abandoning Spain for ever, we could sell GoW the completion of their existing contract for something - at least the land we already hold.

Right now my gut feeling is that GoW aren't going to go with our plan on terms that give us what we came to Bob for. We have paid a high price to stop GoW fullfilling their contract and need to get something back.

	25-11-2003 19:35									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The FP is a tough issue.

If we're giving RP N. Stormia (for eva and eva), then a FP in Elipolis is silly. It made sense if we were to retain all of Stormia, but little else.

The only option for getting a second core on Bob is trying a palace jump via the buildup of several cities over there and the disbanding of EotS. Frankly, I'm dubious for a couple of reasons:

1) I've never done it before, and it is my understanding that it requires a high degree of precision. Unless we have someone (active) who is confident that they can do it right, I don't think we can afford to risk having it blow up in our faces.

2) How are we going to defend our Bobian core?

Anyway, I apologize if this is common knowledge and I've just missed it, but has it been determined whether or not RP is going to N. Stormia for good, or just temporarily? If it's the former, dump the FP build in Elipolis, and we ponder the palace jump to Bob (I remain dubious). If it's the latter, I say press on with the FP build in Eli.

-Arrian

	25-11-2003 20:05									#4
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Under the proposed deal with GoW, RP would eventually return to Spain.

If we don't get the deal, we need to persue an alternative peace. This could either mean RP in N. Stormia paying us rent, or no longer in the game. We may need to consider whether our interests are best served by having them as vassel-allies or not, and RP might want to consider a dangerous future in Spain v a safer future in Stormia.

Whether we can do the Palace jump depends on what land on Bob we can negotiate from GoW if we remove ND.

	25-11-2003 21:03									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Frankly, I'm dubious for a couple of reasons: 1) I've never done it before, and it is my understanding that it requires a high degree of precision. Unless we have someone (active) who is confident that they can do it right, I don't think we can afford to risk having it blow up in our faces.

Oo-er. I've been calmly advising RP do do a Palace-jump (if we get the GoW deal) to Stormia, under the assumption that if Miller Town is size six and the others size 5 or less, it'll be Miller Town. I've never disbanded / lost my capital either, but for the AI it goes to the highest pop city every time, as I recall.

	25-11-2003 23:11									#6
	Land, Economy, and Bob Remove this text

A rough tile count:

Stormia : ~ 200 tiles (including 40 on N. Stormia)

Bob : ~ approx 750 tiles

Lego : ~ 400 tiles (exluding approx 80 New Voxia)


This should be the starting point of our land negotiation with GoW, and will be the starting point for further analysis here.

	26-11-2003 00:00									#7
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Extract from GoW chat - the land:

quote: Theseus> * Who gets what land (assuming that we can cut such a deal) is in question. Aggie> yes,could you give us pamploma mountains north Theseus> * We concur that Lego's cooperation is critical. Theseus> Aggie, say that again... more clarity. Aggie> is it possible you could expand our area from the mountains south of pamploma northward Aggie> say Alamo remains ours Aggie> and pamploma Aggie> you get the coastal cities to Barcelona and the rest is a Neutral zone maybe Theseus> WHOA... that is a lotta land. Gotta go, will leace this open if that's OK, and will respond later. But thanks for the counter-response!

	26-11-2003 00:09									#8
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There is a little more to a palace jump than that, Cort. There was a thread on CFC that tried to lay it all out, but it has a lot to do with how many cities are in the area of the city you're trying to jump to.

However, if Pamp is their last city on Bob, and Miller Town is the most central of the towns in N. Stormia, with the highest pop, I'd be pretty confident of success.

-Arrian

	26-11-2003 00:11									#9
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But you see, if WE were thinking of a palace jump, things would be different. In order to prevent a jump to, say, Arashi or Tempest, we would need to have a ring of cities (perhaps high pop cities) surrounding the city we wanted to jump to on Bob... and that's not taking culture into account (it may not be a factor, I honestly don't recall).

The palace jump worked for Vox because they had only 1 city to go to. The palace jump ought to work for RP. But trying to jump from EotS to a Bobian city? That's another kettle of fish.

-Arrian

	26-11-2003 00:19									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus A rough tile count: Stormia : ~ 200 tiles (including 40 on N. Stormia) Bob : ~ approx 750 tiles Lego : ~ 400 tiles (exluding approx 80 New Voxia) This should be the starting point of our land negotiation with GoW, and will be the starting point for further analysis here.

CH and Theseus,

Nice job on all the work you two have done. I'm sorry to be such a flake, but work-related travel has rendered me pretty useless lately. Whether that changes or not in the near future is unclear.

Anyway, am I right in assuming that the 40 tiles in N Stormia are the ones RP have/ will have? That means that we've got a mere 160 as our core.

It seems to me that we can use these figures to make a pretty good case to GoW. Points to make are as follows:

1. A two-thirds/ one-third split of Bob (which, if memory serves, roughly corresponds to the land north and south of the jungle) would still give GoW 500 tiles, to our 410. This means they will have 25% more tiles than us.

2. When RP returns to Bob, they may wind up with more than 40 tiles of land, meaning our land total will be even smaller.

3. Not only will they have more tiles than us (and Lego/ Vox combined), but their tiles will be contiguous, meaning greater ease in moving units around.

4. Since we have agreed to prevent RP and GoW from sharing a border, we will not be able to create a cohesive "core" the way we otherwise could. Since some of our cities will have to serve as a buffer between RP and GoW, they will likely be far away from the Palace/ FP on Bob, making them less productive than they otherwise could be.

I honestly think that a split along the jungle is fair, provided we both have access to SP. Would it be possible to insert into the contract a statement along the lines of "Since GoW is currently aware of the location of all SP on Stormia and Bob, by entering into this contract they affirm that GS has, within the agreed territorial limits, its own independent access to SP." This would not, of course, mean that we drop our request for GP. I'm a firm believer in the motto, "Trust, but verify."

	26-11-2003 00:40									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'm counting tiles in areas of S.Bob - looking at perhaps 200-250 tiles for GS and RP.

Perhaps a line running along the south of the river NW of Pamplona to the coast both ways . This would give us around 30 jungle tiles and the ivory & spice in the SW. That would leave GoW with 500-550 tiles.

I'll post results with more accurate counting later.

Last edited by Cort Haus on 26-11-2003 at 01:45

	26-11-2003 03:46									#12
	Put an end to popups!

I think tile counts are the way to make the argument with GoW.

Re the Palace and the FP:

I'll need to see what kind of productivity we can achieve on Bob, but I'm thinking a Palace should not be impossible to build in Pamplona or Alamo.

To achieve this we would need to leave the FP in Arashi... if need be, we can always move it to Elipolis later.

	26-11-2003 04:20									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian But you see, if WE were thinking of a palace jump, things would be different. In order to prevent a jump to, say, Arashi or Tempest, we would need to have a ring of cities (perhaps high pop cities) surrounding the city we wanted to jump to on Bob... and that's not taking culture into account (it may not be a factor, I honestly don't recall). The palace jump worked for Vox because they had only 1 city to go to. The palace jump ought to work for RP. But trying to jump from EotS to a Bobian city? That's another kettle of fish. -Arrian

This looks a very strong argument against our Palace jump (PJ) to Bob. Everything we're aspiring to here depends on building a small but significant core on Bob. We can't bank on a leader, so if we can't bank on a PJ either - whilst razing our capital - then no core.

However, New Madrid is 1/3 productive even without a courthouse or marketplace. Barca and Toledo are 20% productive.

If our envisaged 'third' of Bob included the western tip, as in the 'river line' above, we would get some production as far as Pamplona. Having RP in N.Stormia would balance our No-of-Cites corruption.

To conclude - if we must have a Palace on Bob, but can't risk a palace jump (debate needed), then it's grim.

If we can do with limited production - and/or build an FP manually in, say, New Madrid (which we can) we could get maybe six or seven cities in the SE sector - of around 115 tiles. RP take the southern sector - roughly a 110 tile square square running from Alamo in the top right down to the spices bordering us on the SE coast and south of the Alamo-Bonigo Mountain range - which would be GS or DMZ.

The area between the Alamo-Bonigo mountains and the jungle is about 50 tiles. This would mean ~ 275 tiles, which is about 25 tiles over the third that we are claiming, so we could perhaps cede land in that area.

	26-11-2003 04:38									#14
	Put an end to popups!

The 100 tiles for RP may be too high - I don't know how much they're expecting - I'll ask.

We could just ask GoW - "is a 2/3 to 1/3 land split an acceptable idea?".

	26-11-2003 05:10									#15
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Draft To Togas:

quote: Update: We are trying to get GoW to accept an eventual 2/3 to 1/3 split of Bob, with GS and RP sharing around 250 of Bob's 750 tiles. This roughly corresponds to the area south of the jungle in the west, and south of a line running from the river N of Pamplona, North of Toledo to the coast SE of Mavdad. Meanwhile, we have some questions for you... 1) What has been built in Pamplona? 2) What units do you have left on Bob, and what should we - mutually - do with them? 3) What would you find acceptable as a) territory and b) # of cities on Bob when re-built. also, 4) What will you be calling the cities on N. Stormia (presumably we will rename them after re-taking possession), and what would you like the new cities on Bob to be named (we can do that off the bat).

	26-11-2003 05:29									#16
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Draft to Aggie:

quote: To help put the land debate into perspective, we've been comparing the size of the continents in the world in terms of tile count as a rough guide to productive power. Here are the results : Stormia : ~ 200 tiles (including 40 on N. Stormia) Bob : ~ approx 750 tiles Lego : ~ 400 tiles (exluding approx 80 New Voxia) At the moment, GoW had around 160-170 tiles in its homeland. GS has 160 tiles plus N. Stormia. We propose that a 2/3 to 1/3 split between GoW in the North and GS / RP in the south would give GoW 500 tiles of contiguous land - compared to around 300 - 350 tiles for GS- split over two continents. Quite clearly. a sliver of land on the south coast next to a 650-tile Civ is not an equitable-looking outcome from our perspective, and would mean ceding significant territory from that currently held. We feel that the 2/3 to 1/3 split is a fair deal - if you agree then we can get into detail, but if you don't, then we would probably have to be looking at substantially different arrangements.

	26-11-2003 05:36									#17
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To clarify : the area I'm talking about here runs from Mavdad-666 on the east coast to Bonigo-2222 on the west coast, plus some tiles in the region between the Alamo Mountains and the jungle.

	26-11-2003 05:37									#18
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Good draft to Togas... I just PMed him about intel for this turn.

Give me a sec to look at the GoW draft.

	26-11-2003 05:43									#19
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Re the GoW draft:

1) We need to be specific about what RP will end up with... you intimate 100 to 150 tiles, which sounds a bit much. I've been thinking 4 cities in the SW of Bob, so that'd be appr. 80 tiles. Call it 100.

2) Let's stay positive for the moment... unless something dreadful has happened, we still hold significant threats against GoW. No need to shove it in their faces, so perhaps delete the last two paragraphs? I'd rather point out, following up on the comments I made in the last chat, that this arrangement will provide for GoW to TRIPLE their territory!! What's not to like?

	26-11-2003 06:11									#20
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Revised Draft to Aggie: I was originally thinking of around 80-100 tiles for RP in the southern corner - of which about 30 are hills - so it's not very balanced. This might be too much, as I admitted earlier - but you can find 40 tiles in that corner of which only 10 are foodworthy.

quote: To help put the land debate into perspective, we've been comparing the size of the continents in the world in terms of tile count as a rough guide to productive power. Here are the results : Stormia : ~ 200 tiles (including 40 on N. Stormia) Bob : ~ approx 750 tiles Lego : ~ 400 tiles (exluding approx 80 New Voxia) At the moment, GoW had around 160-170 tiles in its homeland. GS has 160 tiles plus N. Stormia. We propose that a 2/3 to 1/3 split between GoW in the North and GS / RP in the south would give GoW 500 tiles of contiguous land - compared to around 350 tiles for GS- split over two continents. RP would have maybe four or five cities in 80-100 tiles of unbalanced, mostly rough terrain in the far SW. This deal would see GoW TRIPLE their territory - what is there not to like?

I thought of avoiding thorny issues like Pamp / Alamo or RP at first - just to see if they accept the 66/33 principle.

	26-11-2003 06:25									#21
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PM'd Togas as per draft above - copy in log (edited to use 'aspire' rather than 'acceptable')

	26-11-2003 06:45									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

If they accept the principle of 66-33, we can then argue against their proposed salient in Pamploma-Alamo. First, they'd want the cities behind them, making the divide 550-200. Second, the buffer would sqeeze RP to almost nothing. Third, it would cut into our mini-core with a destabilising salient (long borders) that could quickly cut us in half or strike any place at will.

Yes, an Alamo-Pamplona salient would be very nice for GoW, but would render our holdings weak and vunerable. A straight border offers relative stability.

What they might say though, is that resources need to be brought into the equation, complaining about being dependent on RP for Ivory and Spice.

If they accept the 2/3 principle, but Alamo-Pamp is their only likely independent source of SP after ND is gone, they may suggest we take more land to the east, and less from the (resource-rich) south.

	26-11-2003 07:02									#23
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Ahhh, grasshopper... think!

Where do ND's Muskets come from?

	26-11-2003 07:10									#24
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Draft of message to Nimitz:

quote: Nimitz, Theseus and I had a chat with Vondrack the other day. We were discussing GS's intended contract with GoW to hit ND, and recieved assurance that as long as we get GoW to agree to the deal, Lego will not intervene against GoW and/or GS in their war against ND. As Lego FAM, we thought we'd like to check with you to confirm that this is Lego's official position, as you see it, and if so, to enquire whether we might be able to move to a formal agreement on this matter. Regards, CH

	26-11-2003 07:24									#25
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The Lego chart was power, btw. They're building a lot of units.

	26-11-2003 07:25									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

Good. I have to go to a party for a few hours... I assume you'll be going to be soon, so, g'night.

Next up on the hit parade: Trying to pin down GoW on a deal.

	26-11-2003 16:16									#27
	Roleplay's Aspirations Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Togas replied here .

By using the word 'aspirations' we now have roleplay's dream for Spain. Now we can test the other parameter - the minimum, or 'acceptable' level.

In the context of this, I can present the tile-count model, explaining the need for GS production on Bob, and ask them whether they believe that GoW could, at this stage, accept the notion of Spain fully restored as a Power on Bob, given the mutual feelings between the two nations.

My guess - only in a locked aliiance of GS-GoW-RP, could GoW ever contemplate the full return of Spain.

What if we said to RP :

quote: ... about 5 cities in 80-100 tiles in the South-West, post-ND is likely to be the very best we can offer you for the forseeable future, unless in a (very unlikely) locked GS-GoW-RP alliance, and we may not even be able to offer that. If all we can offer you is to keep you 'Voxishly' in the game, with no likelihood of a return to power - would you want that or not?

If they'd rather die than accept defeat of their dreams, how would we feel about that? From a long-term vassel perspective, they can offer us another core. From a short term perspective, they are a liability. How much easier would a deal with GoW be if RP were to exit the game?

	26-11-2003 16:18									#28
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- the communiques to Aggie & Nimitz - are they ready to go?

	26-11-2003 18:52									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

latest revision to GoW draft - a couple of tweaks:

quote: To help put the land debate into perspective, we've been comparing the size of the continents in the world in terms of tile count as a rough guide to productive power. Here are the findings: Stormia : ~ 200 tiles (including 40 on N. Stormia) Bob : ~ approx 750 tiles Lego : ~ 400 tiles (exluding approx 80 New Voxia) At the moment, GoW had around 160-170 tiles in its homeland. GS has 160 tiles plus N. Stormia. A 2/3 to 1/3 split between GoW in the North and GS / RP in the south would give GoW 500 tiles of contiguous land - compared to around 350 tiles for GS- split over two continents. RP would have maybe four or five cities in 80-100 tiles of unbalanced, mostly rough terrain in the far SW. This deal would see GoW triple their existing territory, while enjoying a signifcant territorial advantage over GS - so as they say : "what is there not to like?".

	26-11-2003 19:06									#30
	GoW payment from ND? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I've been wondering that apart from the possible SP and desirable geo-strategic location of Alamo-Pamplona. GoW have may another intended role for Pamplona - their FP.

We haven't recently stopped to discuss what GoW are expecting to get out of their contract with ND - and we are taking them at their word that such a contract exists.

Here's one guess : they were going to get Spain - or at least some/much of it, perhaps with some ND securing the northern spanish cities, and GoW planning to build an FP in a central and productive location - Pamplona.

If they are desiring this - it is fundamentally at odds with our aspirations there, but if their payment from ND cannot fully be delivered because we hold eastern Spain, and are claimimg all of it in the long-term, then our 'offer' of delivering their contract is devalued, as it denies them the payment they'd been expecting from ND. All pure speculation, but not too wild, I feel.

If they did have such 2nd core plans for Spain (maybe they even have a GL waiting), it might be hard for them to dump those expectations, even if we are offering them an attractive alternative (2nd core in ND).