26-11-2003 01:07									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It seems the mandarins in Brussels are one of the least democratic groups in Europe

Well they can be a pain in the butt. All the new countries have rigorous criteria to conform to if they want to get in, while many countries already in get away with a lot of things, as my example with the backward country in the south Balkans shows.

I still like Eurocrats in Brussels though, they are our only hope in the unilateral American world

	26-11-2003 01:10									#32
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quote: This is sad. I guess Serbia is going to take the lead seeing as it has embraced true democratic reforms.

So a party which you don't like wins in a democratic election and you think that it isn't democratic? LOL.

	26-11-2003 01:12									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The EU’s central government is run by an intolerant group of left wing ideologues who have never been elected and who are completely unaccountable to the people.

It is idiotic to think that the EU would ever bow to foreign demands for allowing xenophobic elements to flourish. I can see how that would fit nicely with the policies of Sharon, Bush and Murdoch. However they have overplayed their cards a long time ago.

	26-11-2003 01:16									#34
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Paiktis comes from a different background Imran. His country is run by dynasties . Son of the prime minister becomes the prime minister, stuff like that. Last five prime ministers having two surnames. He can't know squat about democracy.

But he gave me an opportunity to inform people about my country, and for that I am grateful

If I exposed some embarrassing details about Greece in the process, well, goes with the sevice

	26-11-2003 01:16									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc The EU policy on anti-semitism is akin to the famous three monkeys. Don't see, Don't hear, Don't tell. That is the perception from the outside, and that won't change no matter how submissive the EU is. Hence the policy of combating anti-semitism is probably relegated to the backseat since it is a no win situation.

I meant the HDZ policy on antisemitism, not the EU policy.

	26-11-2003 01:17									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It seems the mandarins in Brussels are one of the least democratic groups in Europe. They pontificate and demand voters do as they are told and when the voters in democratic countries freely choice a policy which is different from the poorly thought out official party line of Brussels they are demonized and threatened. I recall when Austria elected a right win leader it was the “progressive” left wing of Europe who demanded censorship and legal sanctions. That the Austrian right had broken no laws and had simply advocated different policies then Brussels’s left wing ideologues didn’t matter. The EU’s central government is run by an intolerant group of left wing ideologues who have never been elected and who are completely unaccountable to the people.

Agreed. Let's wait before Croatia's new governemnt actually does something before condemning it. There seems to be shown a real contempt for Democracy in Europe, with the EU getting hysterical everytime someone wants to do something different.

	26-11-2003 01:19									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc It is idiotic to think that the EU would ever bow to foreign demands for allowing xenophobic elements to flourish. I can see how that would fit nicely with the policies of Sharon, Bush and Murdoch. However they have overplayed their cards a long time ago.

I dont think the US really gives a damn what the policy of the EU toward Croatia is, we're just making comments snarky or otherwise. Also dont think Sharon cares to much about Croatian politics (BYW the Israeli far right tended to sympathize with Serbia, for reasons that arent too complicated)

	26-11-2003 01:20									#38
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quote: If I exposed some embarrassing details about Greece in the process, well, goes with the sevice

It is hard not to reveal embarassing details about Greece while talking about it .

How is Croatia these days anyway?

	26-11-2003 01:20									#39
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Well they can be a pain in the butt. All the new countries have rigorous criteria to conform to if they want to get in, while many countries already in get away with a lot of things, as my example with the backward country in the south Balkans shows. I still like Eurocrats in Brussels though, they are our only hope in the unilateral American world

	26-11-2003 01:26									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: If I exposed some embarrassing details about Greece in the process, well, goes with the sevice It is hard not to reveal embarassing details about Greece while talking about it .

quote: How is Croatia these days anyway?

Great. Really, great, but you never heard it from me, we have to whine constantly, you know, tradition

	26-11-2003 01:29									#41
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Ah yes... Eurowhiners .

	26-11-2003 01:32									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Agreed. Let's wait before Croatia's new governemnt actually does something before condemning it. There seems to be shown a real contempt for Democracy in Europe, with the EU getting hysterical everytime someone wants to do something different.

Eh. Venezuela, Hugo Chavez. Rings a bell?
I seriously doubt that the Eu will try to abduct the new Croatian leader.

	26-11-2003 01:47									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Eh. Venezuela, Hugo Chavez. Rings a bell? I seriously doubt that the Eu will try to abduct the new Croatian leader.

didnt chavez lead a coup attempt BEFORE being elected. Has HDZ doen that?

	26-11-2003 01:50									#44
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He probably ment US meddling in Venezuela as compared to EU meddling in it's own "sphere of influence".

	26-11-2003 01:54									#45
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion He probably ment US meddling in Venezuela as compared to EU meddling in it's own "spehere of influence".

yeah, but who's against EU meddling? some of us blame the EU for refraining from meddling in Bosnia. I think whats at issue is the original posters and some european papers judging the HDZ before they take power. Which is why i was trying to clarify the extent to which the HDZ has moved on from the Tjudman years.

I mean these are the same Europeans who insist on dealing with Arafat based on his legitimacy as a "democratically" elected leader.

	26-11-2003 02:04									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc I seriously doubt that the Eu will try to abduct the new Croatian leader.

You'll probably just place sanctions on the country and congradulate yourselves on defending democracy.

	26-11-2003 02:19									#47
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quote: I think whats at issue is the original posters and some european papers judging the HDZ before they take power. Which is why i was trying to clarify the extent to which the HDZ has moved on from the Tjudman years.

It moved on pretty much. Nobody expects to see more than token nationalism when they form the government (and if! they don't have an absolute majority in the parliament, so they have to form a coalition with one of the minor parties).

I am pretty sure they will suck economy wise though

Another problem is Croatia does not have established standards for who gets replaced when government is replaced. Not only ministers, heads will fly all over the bureaucracy as HDZ moves in it's people.

This adjustment will take time and country will be runing in neutral for the whole period.

	26-11-2003 03:33									#48
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark didnt chavez lead a coup attempt BEFORE being elected. Has HDZ doen that?

Hey, Chavez did a coup in 1992 which failed and was imprisoned until 1994. Then in 1998 he wins a landslide election victory. his platform is to cut oil production to raise oil prices (Venezuela is the forth largest oil producer in the world), halt the forced privatization originally done to submit to the fat cats at the IMF, and he is succesful. Then the backlash. International Finance sets all wheels in motion and the 'private'
broadcasting corporations in Venezula start propagandizing for his overthrow in full force, the upperclasses are mobilized to protest. Then the coup in april 2002. 12 protesters are shot dead, the right- wing media manipulates it so that it seems that the shots came from a left-wing counter-demonstration. Problem is, as one journalist who handed in his resignation to one of the right-wing news corporations stated, that the shots came from a roof. Did not come from the other protesters. Who were the agants provocateurs? Well, Chavez is abducted and is taken to an offshore island and is put under the tender care of CIA torturers. Meanwhile the confused population is exposed to the new government. What do they see, and more importantly what does the military see? They see the new government and it is characterized by smiling bimbos, men in Armani suits, and a fat Bishop. The military considers this move not only unconstitutional but in bad taste and move in behind the Chavez administration. People with rolled up shirtsleeves, pale and tired. In short people who are passionate and believe in working hard for the Venezualan people. The US sees this and sets Chavez free. The coup-connection is later trailed all the way up to Powell.

Do you think that the EU would make such a major PR disaster. The Dutch tried to assasinate Milosovic during the War over Kosovo, however I don't think that can be tied to the EU as such.

	26-11-2003 03:49									#49
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You're a wierd one.

	26-11-2003 04:14									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc It is idiotic to think that the EU would ever bow to foreign demands for allowing xenophobic elements to flourish. I can see how that would fit nicely with the policies of Sharon, Bush and Murdoch. However they have overplayed their cards a long time ago.

Please name a single "xenophobic" policy which the current government elect in Croatia has put in place or promised to put in place. Ahhh, I see you can't name one.

The Same goes for the Austrian right of center government from a few years back. The truth is these governments are light years ahead of the EU's central government because they, unlike the EU, were actually elected. Can you name a single Euro MP who was directly elected and is thus accountable to the people? I didn't think so...

	26-11-2003 04:19									#51
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quote: The Dutch tried to assasinate Milosovic during the War over Kosovo, however I don't think that can be tied to the EU as such.

Did the Dutch really try that? I had no idea. Where can I find oput more about the event?

	26-11-2003 04:24									#52
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Tripledoc: I'm calling bullshit. Please site one reputable news source (no crap activist papers with a history of lieing, like the Guardian, don't count) which says the CIA tortured anyone during the coup. As I recall the Bush administration condemned the coup and was vital in dismantling it and restoring Chavez. Also if you want to consider a 1/3 drop in GDP a success then go ahead but most sane people feel Chavez's administration is a total failure and we haven't even discused how he rewrote the constitution to make himself a virtual dictator, closed down opposition newspapers, imprisioned & beat political opponents, and a whole list of other crimes.

	26-11-2003 04:55									#53
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What are teh policies suggested by this so-called right wing government, Vetlegion?

If they are right to the EU, then they should be just about in the centre. I agree with your sentiment that the EU complains to much about policies in opposition to their own, just look at Poland, or Ireland or Malta.

	26-11-2003 05:04									#54
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quote: Serbian TV says Croatian fugitive general hiding in Croatian town November 25, 2003 HR, YU Text of report by Montenegrin Mina news agency Belgrade, 25 November: Croatian fugitive general Ante Gotovina is hiding in Croatia, in Drnis or the surrounding area in northern Dalmatia, British and American spies claim. Serbian Radio-TV has reported that British and American spies have found out about Gotovina's whereabouts by listening to the general's phone calls to his family and friends. On the list of the intercepted calls are two numbers in the office of Croatian President Stipe Mesic. [Passage omitted] The Croatian Interior Ministry has refused to comment on the claims by British spies. Mesic's adviser Zeljko Bagic said that this is "a pure lie and yet another fabrication by foreign spies". [Passage omitted]

(Source: BBC Monitoring / Mina news agency, Podgorica)
http://www.csees.net/news_more.php3?nId=26035&cId=4

Ok, so this leaks just after the HDZ wins, and it certainly does put some pressure on the Croatian president to keep his mouth shut. Especially since the losing party was not so sure it lost after all.

	26-11-2003 05:17									#55
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion quote: The Dutch tried to assasinate Milosovic during the War over Kosovo, however I don't think that can be tied to the EU as such. Did the Dutch really try that? I had no idea. Where can I find oput more about the event?

It was widely reported at the time. The serbs caught the would be assasins and paraded them in front of the TV cameras. Dutch accent, skinhead types. It has probably been buried since.

	26-11-2003 05:27									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Please site one reputable news source (no crap activist papers with a history of lieing, like the Guardian, don't count) which says the CIA tortured anyone during the coup.

They did not torture anyone, nor did I claim they did if you reread what I wrote, they just padded Chavez on his shoulder in their usual friendly manner. It later was propagandized by the rightwing that Chavez was 'broken' because of the promises by the agents of what they would do to him.

	26-11-2003 05:37									#57
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I ...

Never mind. A populace that gave us such accomplished "truth seekers" as Thierry Meyssan is obviously ripe for this kind of BS. Nothing I can say will change that.

	26-11-2003 05:39									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What are teh policies suggested by this so-called right wing government, Vetlegion?

Nothing special. They won elections with promises of the usual stuff (lower taxes, reduced unemployement..) which they will of course not fulfil. I am not a pessimist, I'm a realist.

They played on the nationalist sentiments a lot in their campaign, but that was empty speak. If they manage to form the government, it will be moderate right wing, not far right like thread title suggests.

	26-11-2003 06:07									#59
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I would keep an open eye on the financial pages of Croatia's newspapers. Especially business contracts with foreign nations or corporations. It should not be too hard to discover a pattern then.

	26-11-2003 06:08									#60
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Some more bits of trivia from these elections

Yes! We have a K1 fighter in the Sabor (parliament)

quote: K-1 fighter Mirko Cro Cop elected in Croatia Tuesday, November 25, 2003 at 02:43 JST VIENNA — Croatians elected popular K-1 fighter Mirko Cro Cop, who ranked third on the proportional representation list in the first electoral district of Zagreb, in Sunday's general election, according to official returns on Monday. The 29-year-old fighter, whose real name is Mirko Filipowicz, won his seat after his Social Democratic Party of Croatia won nearly 30% of votes cast in the district, winning more than four seats. (Kyodo News)

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?conten...cat=8&id=279976


And also, observe how elected Serb representatives are preparing to sell to the highest bidder

quote: Serb MPs in Croatia keep their options open | 16:37 | B92 ZAGREB -- Monday – Serb MPs in Croatia have refused to rule out entering government with the nationalist Croatian Democratic Union. Vojislav Stanimirovic, the leader of the Independent Serb Democratic Party, told B92 that the two main coalitions are very similar when it comes to Serb interests, but that the HDZ may be in a better position to address Serb demands. “HDZ have sinned against us, but they might set it right more easily than Racan’s government, because Racan risks being called a traitor,” said Stanimirovic. “HDZ, however, will have a moral obligation to say: “we must bring the Serbs back, we must given them back their property so that Croatia can enter the EU”.” He emphasised that negotiations have yet to begin.

http://www.b92.net/english/news/ind...style=headlines