26-11-2003 06:14									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc I would keep an open eye on the financial pages of Croatia's newspapers. Especially business contracts with foreign nations or corporations. It should not be too hard to discover a pattern then.

Some multi billion dollar deals will be concluded in the next couple of years. Some big and profitable state companies still remain to be sold. But what kind of pattern should I be looking for?

	26-11-2003 06:35									#62
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That is a deep philosophical question that is hard to answer. We would need some pictures to decide.

	26-11-2003 11:32									#63
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VetLegion, selling off state businesses and cutting taxes has got to help your economy. So if the new government actually does that, bravo.

I find it hard to believe that such a sensible policy could be labelled by anyone as "far right wing."

	26-11-2003 19:54									#64
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I'm glad this has evolved into a lively debate despite Vettys funny outbursts

I'm saddened though that Vetty would not condemn outright his far right wing nationalistic government.
You understand that EU is a dream for you now, untill you vote them out.

	27-11-2003 00:50									#65
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Which only goes to show how intollerant the EU really is. Croatia is probably better without it then .

	27-11-2003 01:20									#66
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I'm glad this has evolved into a lively debate despite Vettys funny outbursts I'm saddened though that Vetty would not condemn outright his far right wing nationalistic government. You understand that EU is a dream for you now, untill you vote them out.

5/10

	27-11-2003 01:39									#67
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Any fear about a new far-right nationalist government taking root in Croatia is a bit funny. The HDZ isn't the same party that it was under Tudjman. Sanader has put continually put emphasis on separating and redefining the current nature of the HDZ from what it used to be into a center-right European political party. Besides, the HDZ is going to need to build a coalition.

If anything, this is probably the first "normal" election Croatia has had. EU membership, cooperation with The Hague, the rights of returning Serbs and other such things are not disagreed with between the SDP and HDZ. It was all about economic promises. I certainly would have preferred that the SDP win, but that's how democracy works.

So I'm not exactly pleased that the HDZ won, but I don't think there is going to be really major change in the basic direction Croatia is going.

I also look forward to visiting my family back in Croatia again, hopefully next year (but really when I can find the cash again)

Last edited by Namaste on 27-11-2003 at 04:39

	27-11-2003 06:14									#68
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark 5/10

I strongly disagree. 3/10 max

Gets points for getting me to write a couple of pages about a non-issue, but looses for not pissing me off (lacks the provocative touch). Loses some more for the short, elegant and very accurate expose of Greece I performed. Gets some for not throwing himself into a frenzy over it.

I've seen better
(I'm too modest to say I've done better, but we had some great threads about Greece, didn't we paiktis )

	27-11-2003 06:45									#69
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Can someone please tell me what makes HDZ "far right"? Is it simply privitizing nationalized industries, like virtually every centrist government in the Americas & Asia has done (and their economies are proforming better because of it), or is there some other reason?

	27-11-2003 06:52									#70
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Well, during the 1989-1999 they were in power in Croatia, Tudjman was an autocrat and a nationalist, it was his party so it reflected his ways.

When he died there was a split, two factions formed; an extremely nationalist one and a moderate one. Moderates were victorious in the internal party elections and have since purged most of the extremists, while adopting a milder rhetoric and a modern program.

	27-11-2003 06:56									#71
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Re: American support for the new regime.

Would that have anything to do with how the HDZ in coalition with the American military advisors planned the counterstrike on the Serbian held position towards the end of the War of Yugoslav Succesion (known as the Yugoslavian Civil War amongst westerners)?

My understanding is that that the American 'advisors' gave aircover, and military advice on strategy, tactics, and so on, while the regime sent young conscripts in columns doped on various drugs into the Serbian positions.

Questions:
What were the casualties?
Has there been an investigation by military historians into this offensive?

Ethnic cleansing Inc. aka as MPRI is still active.
http://www.mpri.com/channels/home.html

Last edited by Tripledoc on 27-11-2003 at 08:09

	27-11-2003 21:15									#72
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If you notice, I barely stated what other newspapers write.
Americans such as Oerdin really have nothing to contribute don't you think?
Oerdin would propably say that Hitler was an OK guy and attack the EU "mandarins" for their intolerance.

I remain sad over the developments in Croatia as have been assessed by the european press. And more saddened that instead of condemning them you simply try, unsuccesuvely to "hide" them.

	27-11-2003 22:53									#73
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Oh look, Godwin's Law!

There goes paiktis again... anyone to the right of Tony Blair is a Hitlerite. At least we know how far his intolerance goes.

	27-11-2003 22:56									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Oh look, Godwin's Law!

Does that mean the thread needs to be locked?

	27-11-2003 22:58									#75
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Well don't take my word for it, just read the european press, provided in the first post. You will see that they and I do not consider anyone right of bliar as a hitlerite, only those who deserve that "distinction".

	27-11-2003 23:04									#76
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All I see is the same hysteria the preceded the EU slapping sanctions on Austria when they elected someone not favored by the EU.

	27-11-2003 23:15									#77
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I think you just demonstrated again, your utter ignorance on EU matters. or you are indeed a fan of far right wing nationalism and racism. It can be either one of those but there's no middle road.

	27-11-2003 23:23									#78
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quote: All I see is the same hysteria the preceded the EU slapping sanctions on Austria when they elected someone not favored by the EU.

Yep... I'm thinking the EU is the land of intollerance.

	27-11-2003 23:45									#79
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Hardly. If you're going to troll I'd think you'd troll the other way of your equivalant of the KKK. I guess I was wrong.

	27-11-2003 23:57									#80
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Only a Greek would consider a harmless right-wing party to be equivalent to the KKK .

	27-11-2003 23:58									#81
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Just read the papers.

	28-11-2003 00:00									#82
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What, the fanatical anti-anything-right-wing Eurocommie papers?

I remember how apeshit they went when Haider's party shared power in Austria. They have no credibility.

	28-11-2003 00:07									#83
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I'll just read the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/24/i...ope/24CROA.html

quote: Miomir Zuzul, the former ambassador to the United States who is likely to be named foreign minister, said, "Croatia will be led by a moderate center-right government over the next four years." The victory for the Croatian Democratic Union follows an overhaul of its image, and a purge of extremists, some of whom were implicated in war crimes committed during the 1991-95 Balkan wars.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/23/i...ope/23CROA.html

quote: But now a new leader claims to have abandoned the nationalist heritage of the party, known as H.D.Z., its initials in the Croatian language, and transformed it into a center-right grouping, one with a decidedly pro-American stance and with a goal of helping Croatia join NATO and the European Union within the next two to three years. "There is no room for any radicalism in this party," said Ivo Sanader, who has a Ph.D. and could become the next prime minister. "We have tried to convince the international community that this is a new H.D.Z., committed to human rights, to democracy, to the rule of law, minority rights and philosophy of the free market economy."

quote: At its final election rally, in this Adriatic port, traditionally a center of strong support, the party sought to put its nationalist past aside. Portraits of former President Tudjman, once standard at all the party's gatherings, were hardly anywhere to be seen. The apparent image change is the culmination of two years' effort by Mr. Sanader to reinvent the party, even in some cases expelling extremists, some of whom were implicated in war crimes committed against Serbs in the 1990's wars.

quote: Abroad, Mr. Sanader has forged ties with center-right politicians like the Austrian chancellor, Wolfgang Schüssel, and the Bavarian premier, Edmund Stoiber. Mr. Sanader's team appears determined to form closer ties with the United States.

	28-11-2003 00:20									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui What, the fanatical anti-anything-right-wing Eurocommie papers? I remember how apeshit they went when Haider's party shared power in Austria. They have no credibility.

really? So you think that the biggest newspapers in Germany and the biggest in all over Europe have no credibility? That's quite a stretch, I'm really at a loss of what to say

As for NY Times, sorry I seldom read it when it comes to European matters. And after what Tripledoc mentioned...

	28-11-2003 00:42									#85
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quote: So you think that the biggest newspapers in Germany and the biggest in all over Europe have no credibility?

Not on right leaning parties. ESPECIALLY the newspapers in Germany, they have a conniption fit whenever someone on the right wins anything.

	28-11-2003 00:44									#86
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Really? perhaps you should first educate yourself as to the Christian Democrats of Germany as well as where each newspaper I quoted stand on the political spectrum...

	28-11-2003 00:46									#87
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Yes.. because the CDU is really 'right-wing'. Get a clue, paiktis . If anything like the US Republican Party gained power in Germany, they'd be going off like the Nazis were coming back to town.

	28-11-2003 00:49									#88
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Yes it is right wing, but not (pay attention here) far right wing of the croatian type for which the european press (not only germany) mentions.

	28-11-2003 01:41									#89
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quote: but not (pay attention here) far right wing of the croatian type

Funny part.... the Croation party isn't far right wing either!!

Sorry, paiktis, time to give up .

	28-11-2003 04:59									#90
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Paiktis, you are totaly lost with regards to politics. You don't know left from right and you don't even know right from wrong. Remember your idolizing threads about 17N just days before they were busted?

A supporter of terrorism and a political ignoramus marks a party as 'hitlerite' and preaches me to condemn it?

Too much is too much.

Btw., I hereby openly condemn the Greek dynastic system. It's basically a monarchy under disguise. Yes, little better then a hunta but one should always strive for more.