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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
A war where East Asia, South Asia, most of Africa and Sout America are not involved or scarcely involved can't be called a World War.
Did you guys speaking about 'the world war of terrorism against the West' knew that in the only territory or Congo, there has been millions casualties in the few past years (I think I remember more than 4,000,000 casualties) ?
That's much more than your 'world war' will ever produce until a nuclear power goes amok. |
The "world war" thing is a bunch of bogus hype, of course, but what does Congo have to do with anything? Other than primarily being in a French / European sphere of interest? That is a primariliy tribally driven conflict, casualty numbers are dodgy (but still extreme) and the response to it so far was for a French Colonel to bureaucratically refuse the extraction request of two UN MILOBS who thus became unwilling dinner guests of the locals.
If the Europeans, collectively or as individual nations, want to demonstrate a morally superior interest in human rights and human suffering under oppression, why don't they start being more active in their former colonies?
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Tripledoc
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Tripledoc, your post regarding no correspondence between liberty (right to contract, own property, to travel, etc.) and prosperty is remarkable in its wilfull ignorance. |
Prosperity as in wealth does not neccesarily equate an effective economy. Japan would be an example of that.
What I am talking about is economic development. That is creating the foundation for a strong nation which is capable of warding off encroachment by westen capitalism and militarism. Stalinist Russia would be a good example of how a backwards nation is capable of obtaining a strong economic base capable of guaranteeing national soverignty.
Of course 'liberal' economists know that, and hence they advice western politicians to push for 'reforms' in the middle east and eastern Europe, which weakens them and give international capitalism the opportunity to suck the lifeblood out of their economies.
Everyone agrees that the capitalist reforms have been an unmitigated distater in Russia. In fact the demographics would suggest that the population base has shrunk there to an even greater degree than it did during the civil war and the subsequent famines.
It would be silly to think that the Muslim countries would follow the same example. It is much more likely that they will follow the authoritarian economies of East Asia such as Korea a few decades ago, Taiwan and Singapore now. Liberty had no role to play in those economies. And democracy did certainly not. Neither does property rights equal liberty. The Roman Empire, which wrote property rights into law, was not characterized by liberty for example.
No liberty is as I said a phenomenon exclusively tied to the French and American revolution and is an exclusive western phnomenon which cannot be transplanted to other nations outside the cultural sphere of the west. It would be unfeasible since they have not yet to the same extent devleped the vast amount of control measures which paradoxically is neccesary for liberty to prosper. Many of these nations lack an effective prison system, proper survaillance of citizens. The educational system is not capable of molding the mindset of the young to the same degree as in the west. Psychiatric care is often minimal. Neither is media functioning effectively as propaganda for the masses. Neither has the familiy been rendered obsolete there. This is neccesary in a liberal soceity, otherwise loyalty to the system is hard to come by.
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Tripledoc
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
But except from that, I agree with you that a backward country can get huge economic benefits from a dictatorship. However, the disctatorship will have to grow out of it at one point, when the individual input becomes necessary to keep the economy growing. |
Yes and the development has come from within. When the time is right the huddled masses will by their own accord topple the regime. Any external pressure from the West will only hinder this development because I believe most people are willing to give up personal liberty in exchange for pride in national sovereignty. After all it is better to have a dictator who speaks your language than being ruled by a foreign one.
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Tripledoc
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Except for the bit about distatorships being better able to develop the economies of underdeveloped states, I would agree with you that he was talking crap. |
You don't think that control of the citizens is greater in the West than it is in the Muslim countries. For instance in order to get a drivers license in Egypt all you have to do is show that you are capable of driving a car backward between two trafic cones. Getting a speeding ticket in any mideast country is virtually impossible. Compare to Europe where photographic survalliance has been set up on checkpoints to check for speeding.
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Tripledoc
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
I stoped reading your earlier post once you went into fantasy land regarding capitalism/communism. The only thing I wish to add in response to you is that there does come a point in the development of a country where an authoritarian regime becomes a drag on the economic health of the country. The USSR is a prime example of that. |
I thought Russia was more or less ruined by their transition to capitalism. Of course now we are seeing a more authoritarian government in Moscow, and in fact the Russian economy is progressing nicely at the moment.
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CharlesBHoff
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el paso texas
May 2002
time: 05:32
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The person who start this threat I believe stated that Islam force convert people. That isnot true as Islam have never have mass force covertion of people in it history. When the founder of Islam was force to defend Islam againt the pagan in Mecca who attack Medin some of his major allied trides where pagan.
The only religion I know as for afact that carried out mass force convertion of people was the Roman Church in the Dark
Age when the Frankish King convert from pagan to roman christian he force all of his kingdom people to converted of they will have they head cut off. Spain in 1492 past than law stateing all non-roman christian have to convert or leave spain or stay an be tortue by the spanish inquistion. Many Jew left spain to goto muslum countries where they where free to workship they religion.
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02-12-2003 05:43
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