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Defiant
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WISCONSIN
Aug 1999
time: 05:32
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Tripledoc,
Let me clarify my definition of freedom and maybe it is closer to the definition of liberty. This is what I mean,
CHOICE,
For example, if a woman wants an education, go get it.
If she wants to vote, go do it.
If she wants to wear a business suite and not a black smock, go ahead.
Now these are very obvious to you and I, but have a women violate even the simplest and more obvious freedoms of choice and she may get stoned, or whatever.
If she wants to choose to wear a black smock, fine, but it is her choice.
Things like you should be able to try out for the olympics and if you try your best and not succeed, you shouldn't have your kneecaps ripped off.
You shouldn't have to worry about your little girl turning of age and wondering if the "now dead" blunder twins will rape her, just because they can with no consequence.
Their own laws, once achieved, will dictate just how far their freedoms, or liberty can go, but at least they decide from a majority not a super minority.
As for current prosperity in the ME, I saw on the news(can't remember which, but MTg might be able to back this up), that the entire GNP of the ME doesn't equal Spain's.
If you have a few controlling everything, money, press, power, the area is likely to become a despot for fantaticals like OBL. These guys haven't been able to get out of the caves for 5000 years, they need a little help.
Last edited by Defiant on 03-12-2003 at 22:37
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CharlesBHoff
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el paso texas
May 2002
time: 05:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Charles, would you consider Roman persecutions of Christians attempts at forced conversions? |
Well it they where Greek Orth or Prot yes it force conversion it the threat of force is used. But lately the Roman Church outgrew this force conversion thing of they.
The Muslum control India for afew hundred year, it they where like the Christian of Europe middle age forceing people
to Islam by the sword India Would today be mostly Muslum instead of Mostly Hindic today. There is now proof that the Slave who enter America from Africa where mostly Muslum and traditson Africa spirit workshipper that where forcely convert to Christian religion.
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CharlesBHoff
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el paso texas
May 2002
time: 05:32
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Islan have many different sect that get alone with each other
petty well as they do share alot of religious belief in common.
While the Roman church was trying to ram down every body throat that the Pope is the absolute boss of the Christian belief. The Greek and Russia Oth church doesnot the recognite the pope as being the absolute boss as either do the prot recognite the pope as being the absolute boss of Christian either.
There is no absolute authority figure in Islam at all, the leadership is than collectivist leadership.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:32
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quote:
The problem with most of the anti-war posters is that they offer no VIABLE alternatives. Their solutions are eithier based on the assumption that the enemy has the same underlying belief system that we have (which they don't) or they are based on ideas that have been tried and have failed to achieve results.
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Viability is a difficult argument to make when one is conditioned to prefer force to solving a situation.
While it is true that they have different values, they have to learn that force will not achieve their goals, it will not get them what they want. They need to be given a better direction than war.
The US has faced a crossroads, of either turning the cheek, or seeking vengeance on those who have tried to injure the US. They have yet to be satisfied on the vengeance front, and have now resorted to the empire building policies of Britain developed more than a century and a half ago.
Stable democracies have two sources, internal rebellion, or close contact with the democratic tradition through the process of an empire. Neither is foolproof, but you still see many traces of British colonialism on the map today.
Are the Americans going to be as committed to an Empire as the British, or will they end up like Belgium? That's the choice they face now, to truly rebuild and sustain their colonies until they are ready to stand on their own. It took more than a century in the case of India.
If I could turn the clock back and decline the invitation of the terrorists, I would, but sadly that choice is no longer open to us. The US has now assumed responsibility for two countries, and their success will be gaged on how well these countries do once the Americans leave.
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Tripledoc
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quote:
Originally posted by Defiant
If she wants to vote, go do it.
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Woman Suffrage in the Muslim world.
1920: Albania
1921: Azerbaijan
1924: Tajikistan
1924: Kazakstan
1927: Turkmenistan
1930: Turkey
1945: Indonesia
1946: Palestine,
1948: Israel, Iraq
1949: Bosnia and Herzegovina
1949: Syria
1952: Lebanon
1956: Egypt, Somalia
1956: Pakistan
1957: Malaysia
1962: Algeria
1963: Morocco, Iran
1964: Sudan
1965: Afghanistan
1970: Yemen
1972: Bangladesh
1973: Bahrain
1974: Jordan
1980: Iraq (reinstated)
As can be seen there is no positive co-relation between Islam and baring women from voting.
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Zevico
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Melbourne
Apr 2002
time: 15:32
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Tripledoc:
Israel is not really part of the "Muslim world" but more accurately of the West. Palestine did not have elections as it did not have any rulership aside from the british mandate. Most of the other countries you have mentioned are dictatorships. Iran had a revolution in the 70's and I am not sure if suffrage still applies there (it is Fundamentalist and all...):
Yemen, Afghanistan (was mostly), YBangledesh, Bahrain, Jordan, (Iraq previously). Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, the stan countries.....etc
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Tripledoc
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quote:
Originally posted by Zevico
Iran had a revolution in the 70's and I am not sure if suffrage still applies there (it is Fundamentalist and all...)
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Iran still has woman suffrage. In fact in Iran anyone at and over the age of fifteen can vote, in that particular sense they are more progressive than any western socalled democracy.
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Tripledoc
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Well the reason that I put Israel there was that it has a rather large Muslim population under their control. Or attempted control rather.
Granted it was not because of Islam that women were given the right to vote, but because of socialist influence. however nor was it due to Christianity that women were given the right to vote, but arguably in many cases because of socialism too, although that form of socialism was perhaps closer to social democracy.
However nor has Islam as a rule prevented women from gaining the right to vote. In fact Islam has in its teachings granted women economic rights long before that was even considered in many Christian countries.
But the list was merely made to show that Islam as a religion does not prevent women from gaing equal rights. It might be used as an excuse by hardcore fundamentalists to deny woman basic rights, however these denials seems to be politically motivated as in the case of Saudi Arabia. Were in fact no one has any rights, including men, except the ruling family of around 3000 princes or so.
Regarding the headdress, it is the rule in Iran, and was the rule in Afghainstan. Even then where it is not the rule Muslim women insist on wearing this headdress. And that to such an extent that it has been made illegal in some cases. To say that muslim women are being repressed by 'forcing' them to wear the headdress is absurd, when it would seem more repressive to prevent them from wearing it.
Regarding the stoning of women which I gather some people (with malice) think is administered for even the smalles transgressions that is simply not true. This horrible punishiment is metered out to a woman who has committed adultery and in order for it to be carried out at least four witnesses must have seen the woman in the act - in flagrante. A highly unlikely occurance.
And to say that this is done in all Muslim countries is not true, but only in countries were the political system for various reasons is in itself highly oppressive.
Saying that it is neccesarly Islam which causes the repression of women is not very productive, since surely that would taste of Christian imperialism. It is actually discussing things on the same level as Osama bin Laden when he states that it is because of western democracy that there are the problems of paedophilia and a rampant pornographic industry.
However since corporations in the liberal countries make a bundle on porn and the transmission of porn, this sort of repression of women is not to be chastigated. It is much more constructive to critizise Islam since further wealth can be generated by creating an atmosphere where people are led to believe , or grudgingly accept at least, that democracy can be created by gunpoint.
Of course then the reason behind the 'liberation' of the Muslim woman might point to something far more sinister. An atavistic urge on behalf of these latterday conquerors to posses the women of the vanquished. If not directly, then virtually.
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Tripledoc
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
I have to question the value of quoting suffrage figures for countries where the victor in "elections" tends to get 100% of the vote, if you know what I mean.
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I know what you mean. However what I was trying to refute was the fact that the person I responded to made a smug connection between Islam, Tyranny, and backwardness. The question was whether there is in fact a logical and coherent connection between those three. In my opinion there is no such connection. It is much more complex.
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03-12-2003 22:24
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