02-12-2003 00:16									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Verres Agreed. It does sound as though its verging on eugenics in this case.....but before the baby (please note, im not saying 'foetus' ) is capable of surviving outside the womb, i think it remains the choice of the parents - however messed up their reasons may appear.

I don't have a problem with eugenics, so naturally I don't have a problem with abortion. All parents should have the right to choose the attributes of their offspring.

	02-12-2003 00:38									#32
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What's the big deal? It's not like a thinking being was killed.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

	02-12-2003 00:41									#33
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Fetuses are incapable of thought, just random neural impulses in the cerebral cortex. A chicken has more consciousness than a fetus.

	02-12-2003 00:43									#34
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Fetuses are incapable of thought, just random neural impulses in the cerebral cortex. A chicken has more consciousness than a fetus.

	02-12-2003 00:45									#35
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We aren't talking about a first trimester abortion here che. You still sound like you don't know what you're talking about.

	02-12-2003 00:49									#36
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Above hypothesis would lead to the destruction of many adults in addition to children

---

I know of a kid that was literate at 11 months (i.e. ME) so don't make the erroneous claim that children are incapable of thinking.

---

That said, I'm pro-choice. Or Pro-adoption. The idea being that unmotivated parents are lousy parents, and it is preferable to bring as little anguish to children as possible.
I mean if you're just going to create a kid that's prolly gonna commit suicide anyway...

	02-12-2003 00:52									#37
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I thought you were busy trolling the Hot or Not thread.

	02-12-2003 00:54									#38
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Unwanted children being aborted?

A live dog is better than a dead lion.

	02-12-2003 00:57									#39
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Not if its a rabid dog.

	02-12-2003 00:58									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We aren't talking about a first trimester abortion here che. You still sound like you don't know what you're talking about.

I do know what I'm talking about. Even newborns aren't capable of organized frontal cortex functions. Best they can manage are reflex/instinctive actions. Since this is the part o your brain that makes you you, before it's working, there is no you. Hence, aborting a child even minutes befoer labor, while distatesful, is nothing moer than removing a hangnail, unconscious flesh.

	02-12-2003 01:01									#41
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Hence, aborting a child even minutes before labor, while distatesful, is nothing moer than removing a hangnail, unconscious flesh.

Why the artificial deadline? Carry the line of thinking to its conclusion.

	02-12-2003 01:33									#42
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You have a point DinoDoc. I'd like to see your answer Che.

	02-12-2003 01:43									#43
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DD: Deadline is easy... when it is born, it can't be aborted.

Partial-birth, for instance, abortion is actually a misnomer... a concocted term by the anti-choice crowd, hell bent on demonizing everything they don't like. The fetus is simply removed before it is terminated in cases where an internal abortion threatens the health of the mother. But people have this uninformed idea that a mother is in the middle of the delivery process and just says, "oh I don't want the kid, stick a fork in its brain...", and hence, a medically safe and necessary procedure gets put on the chopping block, even though the biggest organization of OB/GYN doctors says it is a medical procedure necessary to prevent the death of the mother.

Ideally, abortions should be done as early as possible. But sometimes, there are defects, or health risks, that don't get discovered until late in the pregnancy. That's why I say we should leave these decisions up to the doctors and the parents, not some Holier-than-thou dopes who want to impose their will onto others; or corrupt politicians pandering to that segment of the population to get votes.

	02-12-2003 01:45									#44
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Sava's got it.

	02-12-2003 01:46									#45
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quote: DD: Deadline is easy... when it is born, it can't be aborted.

He asked 'why' that artificial deadline, not what is your deadline .

	02-12-2003 01:48									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Sava DD: Deadline is easy... when it is born, it can't be aborted. [irrelevent crap I never mentioned nor asked about removed]

That seems like a small semantic difference considering the position che seems to have staked out for himself.

	02-12-2003 01:52									#47
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were you asking about Englands 24 week policy?

if so, perhaps you should learn how to phrase your questions so that you get the answers you are looking for...

	02-12-2003 01:55									#48
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No, I wasn't. Try not to answer for other people if you don't understand the question being asked of them.

	02-12-2003 02:00									#49
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If you wish to have a private discussion with che, then PM him. This is a PUBLIC FORUM... if you don't want PUBLIC responses, then don't post in a PUBLIC FORUM.

And if you don't want to see my responses, then put me on ignore and don't view my posts.

quit cryin...

	02-12-2003 02:07									#50
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DD, there is no need to abort a child already born. If you're asking why we don't kill infants, that's a cultural thing. We find it very distasteful. Much of our species and our ancestors, however, do not/did not have a problem committing infanticide. Remember the legend of Oedipus, his parents spiked his feet and left him to be exposed. Moses, according to legend, was exposed (but rescued by a princess).

	02-12-2003 02:16									#51
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If you're asking why we don't kill infants, that's a cultural thing.

I'm not asking why we don't. I already know the answer to that. I was asking why you set such an arbitrary and artificial deadline for something you would have no real problem with. It sounded like an extreme position and I was curious why you didn't carry it to the logical conclusion.

	02-12-2003 02:21									#52
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Aborting is easier because at that stage they look like lizards. Cute babies are hard to kill.

	02-12-2003 02:23									#53
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Is the deadline after the child has completely been removed or is there some half and half rule you all would like to apply?

	02-12-2003 02:26									#54
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Spray: It's irrelevant to place such an arbitrary deadline

Should such a case arise where the mother is in the middle of labor, the baby's head is half out... I doubt the doctor would agree to perform the abortion at that point. When you can find a case like that, let me know and I'll present my opinion on it.

	02-12-2003 02:31									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Is the deadline after the child has completely been removed or is there some half and half rule you all would like to apply?

That would end up involving tape-measures being applied to Madame's straining nethers, and at that point the law baulks, I'm afraid.

	02-12-2003 02:32									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Spray: It's irrelevant to place such an arbitrary deadline Should such a case arise where the mother is in the middle of labor, the baby's head is half out... I doubt the doctor would agree to perform the abortion at that point. When you can find a case like that, let me know and I'll present my opinion on it.

What's wrong with wanting to know. Apparently this is a well thought out issue and I'm curious as to where people say they draw the line. I myself can't really see the difference between a child inside the womb and the child ten minutes later outside the womb. I'd just like to know where they cross this magical line for you and che.

	02-12-2003 02:33									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp That would end up involving tape-measures being applied to Madame's straining nethers, and at that point the law baulks, I'm afraid.

The law invades every aspect of human life. At least in this country.

	02-12-2003 02:40									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber What's wrong with wanting to know. Apparently this is a well thought out issue and I'm curious as to where people say they draw the line. I myself can't really see the difference between a child inside the womb and the child ten minutes later outside the womb. I'd just like to know where they cross this magical line for you and che.

well I don't believe in legislating every little thing... sure, it's possible to make laws for every possible situation. But in reality, such a law isn't necessary... should such a situation arise, the courts would set a precedence.

And in addition, I don't think the government should waste so much time trying to make such laws. Nor should the public waste its time with such silly discussions. The biggest problem in this country is that we don't prioritize. Sure, it would be nice if there was a set standard that said what kind of abortion is allowed and what isn't, but in reality, such cases simply don't happen. There's no sense in making a law for something that isn't going to happen. And if and/or when it does, the courts should work out such a case.

	02-12-2003 02:43									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Is the deadline after the child has completely been removed or is there some half and half rule you all would like to apply?

I'm not going to set a limit. While it's extremely unlikely, there are situations where a life-threatening situation is discovered only at the last minute. Save the baby or save the mother, I'll take mother every time.

	02-12-2003 02:49									#60
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I'm not asking about the goverment. I am asking why YOU and CHE have set his arbirtrary line. What is the difference between a child inside the womb right before birth and the child right after birth. From what che said, we might be able to streatch it out a few more months after the actual birth. Is it a matter of convience that birth is the arbirtrary cut off line. That way the mother doesnt have to actually see it.

What is about birth that turns a featus into a child. I'm curious.