01-12-2003 16:35									#1
	I'm pro choice but this is an abortion too far. Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I know this has been gone over many times but this is a newish angle(for the UK anyway)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3247916.stm

aborting the foetus late because it has a cleft palate is in my opinion wrong and clearly in breach of UK law.

	01-12-2003 16:41									#2
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That does seem to cry eugenics.

	01-12-2003 19:06									#3
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what next, people aborting late because they don't like the eye or hair colour of their baby.

	01-12-2003 19:08									#4
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I would like to be able to abort if I don't like the child's personality.

	01-12-2003 19:12									#5
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quote: I'm pro choice but this is an abortion too far.

Uhh, if you are pro-choice I fail to see the problem you would have wrt this abortion other than the date it was caried out.

	01-12-2003 19:12									#6
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We pro-lifers have been warning about this for a long time.

	01-12-2003 19:13									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld I would like to be able to abort if I don't like the child's personality.

I think we should be allowed to abort them until they are 18.

	01-12-2003 19:39									#8
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Uhh, if you are pro-choice I fail to see the problem you would have wrt this abortion other than the date it was caried out.

Because abortion, like all things, is not a black-and-white issue.

	01-12-2003 19:46									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Because abortion, like all things, is not a black-and-white issue.

Do you generally support such procedures that take place after that date? If you do, then I fail to see what possible problem you could have with this one because her reasons for it should be irrelevent to you. If you don't then I can see where you might have a problem with what happened.

	01-12-2003 20:02									#10
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: I'm pro choice but this is an abortion too far. Uhh, if you are pro-choice I fail to see the problem you would have wrt this abortion other than the date it was caried out.

Up to 24 weeks (although 22 might be more appropriate) i am pro choice although i don't like it much.

The UK law says if you want an abortion after 24 weeks there have to be exceptional circumstances e.g severe disabilty or risk to the Mother that does not appear to be the case here.

	01-12-2003 20:21									#11
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What does having a cleft palate entail anyway?

	01-12-2003 20:23									#12
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Do you generally support such procedures that take place after that date? If you do, then I fail to see what possible problem you could have with this one because her reasons for it should be irrelevent to you. If you don't then I can see where you might have a problem with what happened.

And you've answered your own question.

	01-12-2003 20:23									#13
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Why is aborting a fetus because it has a cleft palate any worse than aborting a fetus because you can't be arsed to take care of it? Seriously, I'm drawing a blank on that one.

	01-12-2003 20:32									#14
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger The UK law says if you want an abortion after 24 weeks there have to be exceptional circumstances ...

The law only mentions "severe abnormality" and which is undefined and aparently left up to the descretion of the doctor.

	01-12-2003 20:52									#15
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Stinger is pro choice? The first thing in common. I know a family, which is pretty religious in the good sense actually really enlightened kind people, which has detected a brain abnormality in the fetus which will result in very limited intelligence (borderline) capability and which would mean that they would have to take care of their child for the rest of their lives. Instead of a discontinuation they simply prepared the room and started seeing specialist doctors and reading the relevant books so as to be ready for their child when it will be born. Commentable too.

	01-12-2003 20:53									#16
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i still won't read anything that uses the word "foetus"

	01-12-2003 20:55									#17
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How about "Froederick?

	01-12-2003 20:57									#18
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What exactly is the problem with this child?
On the picture of the child there doesn't seem to be some problems... or did I miss it?

	01-12-2003 22:59									#19
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"Cleft palate" is catch-all term for a whole range of deformity- varying from the barely noticeable to serious facial deformity.

From the article-

quote: Until recently, doctors did not have the ability to detect this problem in the foetus. The degree of disability varies widely from case to case. Sometimes the cleft can go all the way up the face, sometimes there is far less malformation when the child is born. A baby with cleft lip and palate faces problems early on, the most obvious being difficulties feeding, which may require the insertion of metal plates into the mouth. However, operations are carried out to correct the cleft at a relatively young age - three months for lips, and 18 months for palate. Further operations may be required if the facial bones continue not to grow properly, and treatment may continue until the child is in his or her 20s. Ann Furedi, from the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, said she had been told that the severity of cleft palate varied widely, and in some cases the deformity could be life-threatening.

In some cases the kid is born looking like someone has taken an axe to its face. Still- Apolyton knows best.

	01-12-2003 23:06									#20
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I don't have a problem with abortion for any reason.

	01-12-2003 23:07									#21
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It's their kid... it's the mother's body... until the kid pops out, they can do what they want. Who cares what the reason is? The result is the same. The worst thing that society can do is force the parents to have a kid they don't want. Or worse yet, giving the kid up for adoption and then having the kid grow up in government institutions... orphanages, foster programs... ick...

but then again, pro-lifers only supposedly give sh1t until the kid is born...

	01-12-2003 23:23									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Sava It's their kid... it's the mother's body... until the kid pops out, they can do what they want. Who cares what the reason is? The result is the same. The worst thing that society can do is force the parents to have a kid they don't want. Or worse yet, giving the kid up for adoption and then having the kid grow up in government institutions... orphanages, foster programs... ick...

Absolutely!

Think of how many more messed-up people we would have if it wasn't for abortion.

	01-12-2003 23:32									#23
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I don't know a single person who is not messed up

JOn Mille4r

	01-12-2003 23:49									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Still- Apolyton knows best.

Apparently - with no overwhelming opinion on the topic.

	01-12-2003 23:53									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka Apparently - with no overwhelming opinion on the topic.

Don't interupt him when he's pontificating from the mount.

	01-12-2003 23:55									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I don't have a problem with abortion for any reason.

Agreed. It does sound as though its verging on eugenics in this case.....but before the baby (please note, im not saying 'foetus' ) is capable of surviving outside the womb, i think it remains the choice of the parents - however messed up their reasons may appear.

	02-12-2003 00:00									#27
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You guys say eugenics like it's a bad thing .

	02-12-2003 00:07									#28
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Hey,

That is why they have that 24 week rule, as I am guessing that the British government has deemed that is when independant "life" starts. If that is the case, then it is eugenics. If you are Pro-choice and were not a candidate for the last ambercrobie add mag, I would be worried.

-Pat

	02-12-2003 00:10									#29
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Of course I'm pro-choice.....so long as its a choice i happen to agree with

	02-12-2003 00:16									#30
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What's the big deal? It's not like a thinking being was killed.