02-12-2003 02:52									#61
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'm not going to set a limit. While it's extremely unlikely, there are situations where a life-threatening situation is discovered only at the last minute. Save the baby or save the mother, I'll take mother every time.

But you did set a limit at birth. What if the mother can't be saved but the child might? Do you still take the chance or loose both of them.

	02-12-2003 02:59									#62
	Remove this text

Some of you seem to think all abortions are done because of medical reason. I myself won't say that an abortion is wrong if it means that the woman will die as a result. I have known women that took that chance but I wouldnt want it forced upon them.

Anyway, I'm out of this debate. I just see it a different way.

	02-12-2003 03:03									#63
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

If a woman wants an abortion because she doesn't like the color of the fetus' hair, it should be legal.

	02-12-2003 03:07									#64
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: I'm not asking about the goverment. I am asking why YOU and CHE have set his arbirtrary line. What is the difference between a child inside the womb right before birth and the child right after birth. From what che said, we might be able to streatch it out a few more months after the actual birth. Is it a matter of convience that birth is the arbirtrary cut off line. That way the mother doesnt have to actually see it. What is about birth that turns a featus into a child. I'm curious.

Simple... I don't consider a fetus to be a "child" until its born. Until it's free from the mother's body, it's part of it.

The only time the government should be involved in a case of a fetus dying is when the mother who plans to keep the child and if the fetus dies as a result of someone else attacking the mother.

Does that mean I want to see 9 month old kids being put to death? No. But realistically, a woman is not going to go through a pregnancy and just decide she doesn't want the child. It just doesn't happen. And like I said, if it does, we can cross that bridge when we get to it.

If you are Pro-Life and don't want women having abortions, then preach safe-sex and contraception. Both pro-life and pro-choice camps would like to have less abortions, it's just a question of how to achieve that goal.

I don't believe a government has the right to legislate what someone can do with their body. And until someone is born, I don't think they are an independent human being capable of being protected by the law. Sure, putting a limit like that might seem arbitrary, but you have to draw a line somewhere.

Sure, the fairest decision might not be the most popular... and it might not be in conjuction with a lot of people's moral beliefs. But you cannot hope to achieve a moral goal by forcing your will on others.

I'll just echo my suggestion to anyone pro-life. If you want to decrease the number of abortions... promote safe-sex and use of contraceptives. Celebacy isn't for everyone. Sure, you might think that celebacy is moral and that it's wrong to have sex unless you are married or want a kid, but that's not realistic. And if you ever hope to accomplish your goals, your solution needs to be realistic. Banning abortion won't stop abortions. It will only drive women to the coathanger and alley method... or more affluent women will simply travel to a place where they can get an abortion. And how is such a law going to be enforced? Are you going to create an Abortion Police who checks to see if women are pregnant and then arrest them if they cease to be pregnant without the child being born?

It's just like the War on Drugs. Banning the substance doesn't stop use. So what's next? A "War on Abortion"? It won't work.

We live in a society obsessed with the rule of law... a society that wants to ban everything it doesn't like or agree with and then use the force of law enforcement to enforce and impose it's will on people. Sometimes, the best solution is a very unorthodox approach.

But people get so worked up and dead-set in some ideology that they are blind to the problem and are too lazy to listen to other solutions.

	02-12-2003 03:08									#65
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I'm totally with Sava and Che on this one. Damn I'm left wing.

	02-12-2003 03:12									#66
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I'm totally with Sava and Che on this one. Damn I'm left wing.

nah, it's not about left wing or right wing... sure, generally left wing=pro-choice, etc... but polarizing this discussion into left vs right just destroys any hope of reaching a solution.

Both sides are guilty of mis-characterizing the other. And I am guilty of it as well... but if people would stop fighting like children over this issue and look at the situation realistically, we could create a system and strategies to decrease the number of abortions.

	02-12-2003 03:13									#67
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Sigh.

	02-12-2003 03:15									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Sava nah, it's not about left wing or right wing... sure, generally left wing=pro-choice, etc... but polarizing this discussion into left vs right just destroys any hope of reaching a solution.

True. I was just trolling really.

quote: Both sides are guilty of mis-characterizing the other. And I am guilty of it as well... but if people would stop fighting like children over this issue and look at the situation realistically, we could create a system and strategies to decrease the number of abortions.

I think emotion gets in the way in a lot of these kinds of discussions. On any topic I try to look for a solution that's not based on emotion.

	02-12-2003 03:23									#69
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think this whole case is strange. The women who is trying to prosecute the mother does not have access to the information on the case. The hospital has released that the baby would have a cleft palete, but when asked if that was the only condition would not comment, nor would they comment on the situation of the mother. There are many problems with this case. The women bringing it to court has no involvement with the abortion and has no right to see the private details of the would-be mother, which would come out if the case goes to court; the police force have investigated somewhat and decided, with advice, that it isn't able to prosecute; and the decision of a severe abnormality should be, as it is, IIRC, up to the doctor. I think the last paragraph sums up how I feel about it:

quote: I think it is absolutely bizarre that the Reverend feels - knowing absolutely nothing about individual circumstances of this woman, that she can go on to take legal action around it.

As for my views on abortion, we feel we have a right to kill any other organism that is feeding itself of our own bodies. I don't see it as a foetus' right to live, but as a womens right to withdraw her support. If she decides she doesn't want her body sustaining another, then that other must be removed. If it can survive outside her body, then let it and let the baby be adopted, if it can't, then it will be an abortion.

	02-12-2003 03:40									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I don't know when foetuses/infants are able to have organized thoughts, but I remember having read that a foetus can feel pain after 24 weeks.

Since today's abortions look like being really painful for the foetus (no precaution is taken to limit the pain), I think late abortions should only happen when the life of the mother is threatened, or when a grave problem gets detected.

In this precise case, I have no idea whether the case was grave or not, so I can't have an opinion.

I'm strongly pro-choice, but I think it is "utterly ghoulish" (thx Stefu) to kill 9 months-old foetuses. Indeed, it makes no difference with killing born infants.
The American debate on the issue could be much more healthy, if it wasn't polarized in either-or.

	02-12-2003 04:02									#71
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Che avoids the issue, so does Sava. This indicates that they have no good faith ethical, as oppposed to legal, position on abortion.

In contrast, I see morality in terminating the life of the unborn or even born infants with serious defects as defined in the British law. Both should be legal. This, after all, was a basic Roman law, one of the original ten inscribed in the Forum.

	02-12-2003 04:05									#72
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Absolutely! Think of how many more messed-up people we would have if it wasn't for abortion.

Sure, for instance, over the past fifty years nearly 300 million Soviets have been aborted. Without abortion they might have won the cold war.

In most parts of the world the ratio of females to males at birth is 1.05 to 1. In India however, the ratio is 0.90 to 1 thanks to ultrasound guided selective abortion.

	02-12-2003 04:14									#73
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think a good way to look the situation is like this:

There are unjustified abortions. This is a Bad Thing. However, legislating abortions, and getting big government involved in the intimate lives of citizens is not the right course of action. The vast majority of abortions are early and justifiable. Every time a certain story comes out that may or may not be true, about an unjustified abortion, people like to jump on it and start proclaiming that nearly-born babies are being slaughtered every 10 seconds worldwide.

Mistakes are made; unjustified abortions are performed. But you can't introduce blanket rules for an entire range of medical procedures, simply because there is an exception to the rule that occurs from time to time, and is unfavourable.

When it comes to medical procedures, I like to place my trust in the doctors and patients, not so much the bureaucracy.

But that's just me.

	02-12-2003 04:58									#74
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp "Cleft palate" is catch-all term for a whole range of deformity- varying from the barely noticeable to serious facial deformity. From the article- In some cases the kid is born looking like someone has taken an axe to its face. Still- Apolyton knows best.

Laz speaks the truth - a simple google search reveals it.


Warning, only for people with really strong stomachs and a desire to know what a really bad cleft palate looks like:
http://www.llu.edu/llu/medicine/pla...ippines97-1.jpg

	02-12-2003 05:50									#75
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

God, some of you people are ****ing ghouls. It's a pity your mothers decided to keep their "hangnail".

	02-12-2003 06:05									#76
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ned Che avoids the issue, so does Sava

I don't know about Sava but che certainly is.

	02-12-2003 06:45									#77
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

what's the difference what reason you abort? It is still the same act either way. Killing a baby for no reason is better than killing a baby for a specific reason?

	02-12-2003 11:12									#78
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I think there are seriously different issues when an abortion involves a seriously defective infant and a completely normal infant. In the former, we are terminating a life that would only know misery or be a significant burden to their parents and society. In the latter, the infant is being killed for the "health" of the mother. If this "health" is a sham, I think the abortion of a viable fetus should be banned.

But, in the case of a seriously defective infant, I think the option of termination should continue for a brief time after birth. For example, corrective surgery might be attempted. If not successful, the infant could be allowed to die.

Also, from reading some of Sava and other's comments, I see why they do not extend their "hangnail" concepts beyond birth. Before birth, the choice is solely that of the woman under medical advice of her doctor. After birth, the father has an interest that must be consulted. This is an anathema to the woman's movement.

	02-12-2003 12:53									#79
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: A chicken has more consciousness than a fetus.

Che:

So what?

A newborn horse can run, and is way more physically imposing than an infant. Yet would anyone take the horse over their child?

	02-12-2003 12:57									#80
	Remove this text

quote: In the former, we are terminating a life that would only know misery or be a significant burden to their parents and society.

Ned:

How do you know that the child would only know misery? Just because you perceive someone's life to be worthless does not make it so. In fact, our perceptions can have very little to do with reality, and much more to do with our own prejudices.

"The mind is it's own place, entirely of itself, and can make a heaven of hell or a hell of heaven."

	02-12-2003 12:59									#81
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

As for the burden to society, why then do we not kill everyone who goes on welfare? They are a burden to society.

	02-12-2003 13:07									#82
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

cinch:

quote: There are unjustified abortions. This is a Bad Thing.

Why? If the abortion merely kills a piece of tissue, than it should be allowed for whatever reason the mother wants, for all nine months of pregnacy.

quote: However, legislating abortions, and getting big government involved in the intimate lives of citizens is not the right course of action.

Is it right for the government to protect a child from abuse at the hands of their parents? If so, this means that the well-being of children takes precedence over any perceived right to privacy.

quote: The vast majority of abortions are early and justifiable. Every time a certain story comes out that may or may not be true, about an unjustified abortion, people like to jump on it and start proclaiming that nearly-born babies are being slaughtered every 10 seconds worldwide.

Well, show me what's the difference between an early and justified abortion and a late and unjustified abortion.

quote: When it comes to medical procedures, I like to place my trust in the doctors and patients, not so much the bureaucracy.

If abortion is a medical procedure, what condition does it cure?

	02-12-2003 13:22									#83
	Support Apolyton

Drogue:

There are differences between abortion and withholding treatment. If the mother withheld treatment, then she would have the baby. She needs to have a procedure done to her in order to have the abortion.

Secondly, you make abortion sound as clean as unplugging a feeding tube. This is most definitely not the case. Abortions use a suction machine that rips the child into little tiny pieces that must be reassembled to ensure that they have gotten all of the child out of the mother.

Finally, would a mother be arrested for refusing to feed her child due to negligence? Yes. What this means that as her child, the child has a claim to the mother's support.

	02-12-2003 13:34									#84
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Also, from reading some of Sava and other's comments, I see why they do not extend their "hangnail" concepts beyond birth. Before birth, the choice is solely that of the woman under medical advice of her doctor. After birth, the father has an interest that must be consulted. This is an anathema to the woman's movement.

Sure, if I had a child that had some sort of massive debilitating disease or condition that would cause extreme pain, I might consider some sort of euthenizing procedure. But then again, I have never been faced with such a decision; so I can't even imagine what that situation would be like or how I would react.

	02-12-2003 13:46									#85
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: if so, perhaps you should learn how to phrase your questions so that you get the answers you are looking for...

You sound like the robot cab driver in "Total Recall".

	02-12-2003 14:42									#86
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

There is a point to this case in that it may enable a better definition of serious disability, which is obviously a bit woolly.

	02-12-2003 15:13									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Ben, I think loved ones have the right to pull the plug on their own who are suffering or who would suffer a great deal and who cannot make the decision themselves. In fact, I favor more than this. I favor allowing someone to be put out of their misery if necessary by letal injection or the like if that is their wish.

That's where I start. This is why aborting a serious deformed or retarded fetus is OK in my view.

	02-12-2003 15:15									#88
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Sava Sure, if I had a child that had some sort of massive debilitating disease or condition that would cause extreme pain, I might consider some sort of euthenizing procedure. But then again, I have never been faced with such a decision; so I can't even imagine what that situation would be like or how I would react.

Sava, I have had both parents die of cancer. I only wish there was a way to end the suffering more humanely. Our current system of prolonging agony is the height of inhumanity.

	02-12-2003 15:16									#89
	Got spare money?

Both parents?
Now, that must have been a really, really cruel experience

	02-12-2003 16:35									#90
	Inflate your Upload Space

Spiffor, dying is not easy on anyone involved, especially the family. Our sytem today is downright cruel.