04-12-2003 12:35									#31
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Yeah I suppose that whole 'based in atheism' thing would tend to alienate most Christians

	04-12-2003 13:27									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why not? You already came clean about the theft. PS For monkspider: Common Ground Between the Philosophies of Christianity and Libertarianism

Dino-D I read some of that article, but eventually the small print got to me. I agree that libertarianism is not necessarily against christian principles, but only if the ultimate goal is socialism. If a libertarian society's goal is laissez faire capitalism, it is ultimately impossible for it to be in sync with Christ's teachings.

Anyway, I swore to myself that I would not engage in any debates on this site anymore, I only chimed in because this is a subject that's near and dear to me. You guys will find the truth in your own time.

	04-12-2003 13:42									#33
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Just to note the obvious: ther is property under communism; it's just that such property is collectively owned. So, to take collective property for your exclusive, private use would be stealing.

Frankly, it's much harder to reconcile capitalism and Christianity than to reconcile communism and Christianity.

	04-12-2003 13:58									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak Of course, without property, there can be no theft, and in communism, there is no property.

There is no private ownship of property.

	04-12-2003 14:27									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak when i was refering to communism, i was refering to true communism, not the poor attempts at it reflected in the "real world"

You mean like the original Christian communities?

	04-12-2003 14:30									#36
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse You mean like the original Christian communities?

Well done, sir! Bravo!

	04-12-2003 14:31									#37
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Also, wouldn't this imply a greater divergence between Judaism and Communism than between Communism and Christianity? (That passage being taken from the Old Testament, and bearing in mind such choice passages from the New Testament as "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle..."), but as we all know there has been a strong Jewish presence in the Communist movement from its earliest days (as a matter of fact, the only Communist MP ever to serve in the Canadian House of Commons was a Montreal Jew)...

	04-12-2003 15:40									#38
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse You mean like the original Christian communities?

There's also Jesus's abmodishment of selling all your properties and give $ to the poor. So much for Libertarianism.

	04-12-2003 15:52									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger There's also Jesus's abmodishment of selling all your properties and give $ to the poor. So much for Libertarianism.

Is this mod speak?

	04-12-2003 15:57									#40
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There are much better reasons for Christians to oppose Communism than the different ideas about property.

This whole 'religion is the opiate of the masses' and the slaughter of Christians in the former Soviet Union suggest small hints as to the animosity Communists have for Christians.

	04-12-2003 23:09									#41
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quote: Originally posted by orange Yeah I suppose that whole 'based in atheism' thing would tend to alienate most Christians

ya think so?

	04-12-2003 23:10									#42
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Don't forget -- them commies SURE hate those personal, roadside memorials!!!

	04-12-2003 23:37									#43
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I think Christianity and Communism have a lot in common. Both are supported by foolheartly idealists. Both are systems of belief and behavior that aren't realistic. Both require lots of "faith". And in the case of Soviet Communism, both are centered around a "God" or "boss" who are worthy of worship and everything is done in "his" name.

Both bring out the worst part of humans... and both seek to spread across the globe in hopes of world domination.

	04-12-2003 23:40									#44
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Hey Sava -- not all Christians and commies are foolhardy.


That's just stereotyping everyone as being the same.

	04-12-2003 23:43									#45
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god is such a commie.

put the pieces together, fellas.

1. god never holds elections.
2. god exiled the only opposition (satan) to hell.
3. in heaven, everyone has everything they need, and is happy.
4. there is no "black heaven", "white heaven", et al, no "rich heaven", or "poor heaven". classless society.
5. god wrote the history books.

	04-12-2003 23:44									#46
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Hey Sava -- not all Christians and commies are foolhardy.

but enough to make the rest look that way...

quote: That's just stereotyping everyone as being the same.

duh, it's what I do best...

	04-12-2003 23:44									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX god is such a commie. put the pieces together, fellas. 1. god never holds elections. 2. god exiled the only opposition (satan) to hell. 3. in heaven, everyone has everything they need, and is happy. 4. there is no "black heaven", "white heaven", et al, no "rich heaven", or "poor heaven". classless society. 5. god wrote the history books.

	04-12-2003 23:46									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I think Christianity and Communism have a lot in common.

Other than the fact both constitute a religion, I don't see much similarity between the two.

	05-12-2003 00:24									#49
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Actually I think communism and christianity are the closest a socioeconomic ideology and a metaphysical dogma can go in economic terms.
Help those in need etc.

	05-12-2003 00:28									#50
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Help those in need etc.

The key part of that is that Christianity doesn't force you to do that. It must be a willing act on your part for it to have meaning. Communism doesn't care what you want.

	05-12-2003 00:29									#51
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In a way it "forces" you if you wanna go to heaven. Also we're talking about the "preachings" of the two, which appear to be very similar.

	05-12-2003 00:32									#52
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Being neither Communist nor Christian, I'm only interested in the potential trolls/flames. Lets go, folks!

	05-12-2003 00:33									#53
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Ramo,

quote: As they ought to own the means of production, Micheal Dell is using state power to enforce appropriation of the computers from his employees, and I thus bought unjustly confiscated goods.

1)The workers should only own the means of production is a)the signed a contract giving them control, or b)they created the means of production, using their own resources, with no voluntary contract giving the means of production over to someone else.

The workers, by and large, are also incompetent to own and operate a corporation such as Dell

2)As Berz pointed out, they agreed to give the results of their labor to Dell.

You say this was a coerced agreement, but it, in fact was not. Coercion means somebody forced you to do something. You wouldn't consider the need to eat to be coercive, would you? Natural necessities are not coercive, they are facts of life. The need to eat is a fact of life, and if you want to fulfill that need, you have to find some way to get food. That way to get food is to either grow the food, steal the food, or buy the food. If you can grow all that you need, great. But most people have gotten past that hunter-gatherer nomadic mentality, and don't wanna do it anymore. If you want to, though, go ahead. As for outright stealing, surely you don't think it's OK for people to randomly raid cornfields that belong to others, right? And as for buying food, you need money for that. The way to get money is to perform a service for someone who has money, which is exactly what the workers of Dell are doing. How this is immoral is beyond me - it is only immoral and coercive if a)the will to survive is immoral, or b)you believe a natural need is coercive in the same way that an interaction between humans can be coercive. If you take option B, that's your prerogative, naturally, but it doesn't really get you anywhere, so there it is.

I'll deal with the rest of that nonsense about how Christianity's ultimate goal is socialism later, after class/work. Suffice it to say I've dealt with monkspider before on this issue, using the text of the New Testament, and if he wants to go down that road again, fine by me.

	05-12-2003 00:35									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Being neither Communist nor Christian, I'm only interested in the potential trolls/flames. Lets go, folks!

away with ye, poultry pop.

	05-12-2003 00:37									#55
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Other than the fact both constitute a religion, I don't see much similarity between the two.

Are you kidding? The teachings of Jesus are very communist.

Remember all that talk about how it will be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven? Sounds like class warfare to me!

	05-12-2003 00:39									#56
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The next reincarnation of Jesus was Che but noone realized it. They even looked the same.

	05-12-2003 01:27									#57
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You didn't see that SNL skit about making larger needle eyes and genetically engineered smaller camels?

"we ground up a camel into a sluci and it passed through fairly easily, but that might be considered cheating"

	05-12-2003 01:51									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Are you kidding? The teachings of Jesus are very communist.

Selective reading might possibly lead someone to that conclusion.

	05-12-2003 01:57									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Are you kidding? The teachings of Jesus are very communist. Remember all that talk about how it will be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven? Sounds like class warfare to me!

This coming from someone who not too long ago, argued that Jesus may not have ever existed.

	05-12-2003 02:11									#60
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun This coming from someone who not too long ago, argued that Jesus may not have ever existed.

Whether he did or didn't exist doesn't change the fact that teachings ascribed to him exist, so what's the point of mentioning it?