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Gerar Dean
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Acá abajo
Sep 2002
time: 01:32
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I've just seen the ppt.... I'm too scared now 
quote:
Modern interface/help conventions
Continuous, immersive 3D world (what-you-see-is-what-you-get)
Drop unfun legacy (pollution, rioting, maintenance, corruption/waste)
New killer features (religion, civics)
RPG elements (unit upgrades/experience)
Coding from scratch (multiplayer, mod-friendly)
Can still take over the world!
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"Simplify, simplify, simplify"
What the hell, it's all about marketing. What I seen is "thanks for your wishes, but we go to make what the marketing department say"
I'm "severely afraid" about civ4. I don't give a damn about 3D. It likes good?, OK, but I want a better game 
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Vesuvius
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14:59 "We are in development on Civ IV", Firaxis has informed us this afternoon, confirming recent reports hinting at the existence of the new sequel in the hit strategy-sim series.
Earlier this week, a listing for the game appeared on Atari.com. Just as quickly, the listing was removed, but not before it had been noticed by eagle-eyed reporters.
No doubt like us you're probably not sitting in front of your monitor screen with a huge look of shock plastered across your faces. A new Civilization game? Really? Does the sun rise in the morning?
Still, it's nice to get the official word straight from the horse's mouth as it were. Although Firaxis was unable to speak further about Civ IV at this time, it did say it would "start talking more about the game after the first of the year."
Keep your eyes peeled for the first wave of Civ IV goodness, at the start of 2005.
http://www.computerandvideogames.co.../news_story.php(que)id=110983
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by ThePlagueRat
Ok, that's what I've been thinking too.
What it really depends on here is are three things:
1) Who is in charge of development?
2) Do they use programmers or monkeys?
2) Are they listening to the civ-community at all?
If the answers are 1) those who were in charge of civ2 and 2) good old SMAC-programmers 3) yes, listening very carefully... then we have nothing to fear! 
Otherwise we should not anticipate a working game at all, and I wont buy it. Their record says they used more than a year after civ3 release to make it work right and it took two expansion packs and numerous patches before it was a complete game... They bled us dry those capitalist swines. So we should not expect anything better this time. |
The reason Civ 3 had so many problems being "completed" was not because Firaxis is full of money-grubbing capitalists. Civ 3 was based off of SMAC code, which was based off of Civ 2 code, which was based off of... so in other words, they were already working with an old code base that was derived from something else. Early prototypes were very similar to SMAC and even now there are still code remnants which bear SMAC origins. So the development was plagued with that from the beginning. It's hard to make new additions to a game that was designed for space colonization and combat. It's like being a movie director and handed a script with the boss saying "you MUST use this script, now make a great movie!" and trying to make that great movie. Good luck.
Secondly, a year into development your wonderful "Civ 2 developers" and "SMAC programmers" left the company high and dry. Firaxis had to hire a completely new team in order to salvage the project in order to even make sure it could be released at all, let alone if it would work. I don't know how much you know about the software development process, but having almost 100% turnover in your dev team is a catastrophic blow to a project. Most of the time this sort of thing will result in a project being scrapped. Instead Firaxis pulled through and released the game, a little more battered than was planned and not quite as complete or polished. Those people you admire so much for Civ 2 and SMAC are basically the reason Civ 3 ended up like it did - think long and hard about that before criticizing Firaxis any further.
To do 2 years of work to add MP and further round out the game for free would not be an option (working 2 years for free isn't going to keep the lights on) so they turned to expansion packs so they could pay the bills.
Civ 4 will not be ailing from any of those problems - it will be programmed from scratch and not based on any other old code. There will be nobody important (presumably  ) leaving the team in mid-development. There was already working MP back in, what, February, and plans of allowing (and by now I'm sure quite a bit of real development into) powerful and sweeping modding. Thus real programmers in the mod community can make all those crazy wacky changes that people around here would want without Firaxis having to compromise the core gameplay.
In other words, I would wait and see what Firaxis has in store this round before proclaiming it a dud, especially with over a year left in development and no REAL news on the project announced. Those snippets from Soren came 1.5+ years out from release - often times that's the entire DEVELOPMENT LIFESPAN for games! A lot can change, and I'm sure there's plenty going on behind the scenes that nobody here can imagine.
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ThePlagueRat
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Insert banana to play...
May 2002
time: 06:32
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Hi Trip. Long time no see... I wrote an article about you when you got elected president in C3DG first time. It's kinda fun... I send you in PM, you won't be disappointed, I promise! 
quote:
Originally posted by Trip
so in other words, they were already working with an old code base that was derived from something else. Early prototypes were very similar to SMAC and even now there are still code remnants which bear SMAC origins.
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The reason I mentioned Civ2 and SMAC is that they were errorfree games and some of the greatest games ever, and that something got lost in Civ3 and it could not measure up with its predecessors, so then I focus on the result, not the process of development. But the process is also interesting. (which you are probably right about) Ok, code reuse is normal work for programmers, reuse of code can be a good thing for those who work with code, if they are able to read the code and if its written in a way that is highly modular or object oriented it's easier to do that. If you try to do it out of somebody elses spaghetticode without their assistance it may soon end up in a mess. There is a trick there too called wrapper classes, a kind of modularization. I know about programming because it's something I do, but how do you know so much details about the SMAC code, I thought it was classified material? Are you working for them?
quote:
Originally posted by Trip
I don't know how much you know about the software development process, but having almost 100% turnover in your dev team is a catastrophic blow to a project.
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I know, it's very critical when that happens. It's a worst case scenario in project planning. I've been working on a software project as programmer on the university. And the organisation was horrible, and suddenly I found myself with unreadable code and the authors not available. Then you have to reverse-engineer it. It no fun at all, so I must critisize my "Civ2 and SMAC heros" for that as well. They are not godlike to me at all, but I'd prefer they were put back to work because they are responsible for some of the greatest games ever so they know how to do the job right.
The only godlike developer I know of is Johan at Paradox who were lead programmer of Europa Universalis and the successor games, a perfectionist, he is so dedicated he works on patches during friday night so it will be ready for us saturday morning and he posts weekly screenshots on the game he is working on at the moment. Hearts of Iron 2 btw. In which we now can see that he has been listening pretty much to the suggestions from that community. Now that is a dude I really respect! No extra costs for us either. One game... you go buy it and you get what you paid for and even more. We can all hope that will be the case with civ4, but I have my doubts!
quote:
Originally posted by Trip
Thus real programmers in the mod community can make all those crazy wacky changes that people around here would want without Firaxis having to compromise the core gameplay.
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I agree on that. If the developer makes the game highly moddable, it would be no problem. As I say, it all depends on whos gonna do the job. You seem to have some inside information, so can you tell us anything about that?
Last edited by ThePlagueRat on 23-10-2004 at 12:04
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by ThePlagueRat
Hi Trip. Long time no see... I wrote an article about you when you got elected president in C3DG first time. It's kinda fun... I send you in PM, you won't be disappointed, I promise! |
Always good to see some friendly and familiar faces around. I'm on to bigger and better things than the C3DG Presidency these days though, for better and for worse. 
quote:
The reason I mentioned Civ2 and SMAC is that they were errorfree games and some of the greatest games ever, and that something got lost in Civ3 and it could not measure up with its predecessors, so then I focus on the result, not the process of development. But the process is also interesting. (which you are probably right about) Ok, code reuse is normal work for programmers, reuse of code can be a good thing for those who work with code, if they are able to read the code and if its written in a way that is highly modular or object oriented it's easier to do that. If you try to do it out of somebody elses spaghetticode without their assistance it may soon end up in a mess. There is a trick there too called wrapper classes, a kind of modularization. I know about programming because it's something I do, but how do you know so much details about the SMAC code, I thought it was classified material? Are you working for them? |
I agree that the finished products for Civ 2 and SMAC were quite a bit more polished than Civ 3, but I think I've explained pretty well why that ended up being so. Yes, code reuse is quite common, but you're opening up a new can of worms when you're drawing on stuff that's 8 years old, written by multiple generations of programmers including the final group which clearly knew they were going to be leaving the company as they were working on the game. How hard do you think people work when they know they're going to quit tomorrow or next week?
As far as my relation to Firaxis, well, I'll leave that as a topic for another day.
quote:
I know, it's very critical when that happens. It's a worst case scenario in project planning. I've been working on a software project as programmer on the university. And the organisation was horrible, and suddenly I found myself with unreadable code and the authors not available. Then you have to reverse-engineer it. It no fun at all, so I must critisize my "Civ2 and SMAC heros" for that as well. They are not godlike to me at all, but I'd prefer they were put back to work because they are responsible for some of the greatest games ever so they know how to do the job right. |
Well, when they left they started a new company under Brian Reynolds called Big Huge Games. Their first project was Rise of Nations (essentially Civ in a RTS environment), so if you haven't played that game you might want to check it out. Even so, I have faith in the new generation of Firaxians working on Civ 4. But everyone has their opinions.
quote:
The only godlike developer I know of is Johan at Paradox who were lead programmer of Europa Universalis and the successor games, a perfectionist, he is so dedicated he works on patches during friday night so it will be ready for us saturday morning and he posts weekly screenshots on the game he is working on at the moment. Hearts of Iron 2 btw. In which we now can see that he has been listening pretty much to the suggestions from that community. Now that is a dude I really respect! No extra costs for us either. One game... you go buy it and you get what you paid for and even more. We can all hope that will be the case with civ4, but I have my doubts! |
Yes, I am quite familiar with Johan and his work ethic, I worked with him and some other guys for quite a while on HOI 1. It was a good game, the AI wasn't tough enough to put up a good fight against me though. My favorite MP gaming moments were while playing it though.
As far as Firaxis and how they stack up with Johan/Paradox, I'm not sure how much Soren or Jesse would appreciate me saying this out here, but I'll go ahead and do so anyways because their efforts and the efforts of others at Firaxis deserve to be recognized more than a list in a manual. I would say that the contribution of those who are currently working on Civ 4 is equal to if not greater (if that's possible, no offense Johan ) than what Paradox does. I won't go into details, but work late into the evenings and on the weekends is something that team is quite familiar with. They live to make games and they live to make the best games they can. Which is another reason why I have so much faith in their ability to produce a masterpiece. Their dedication goes far beyond 9 to 5 and what they get in the mail once a month.
There is quite a contrast between Paradox and Firaxis though. Paradox is very much a smaller niche company, whereas Firaxis caters more to the mainstream, whether the Civ fans here like that or not - that's just the way it is. So expecting things like an econ engine ala Paradox's Victoria is a bit farfetched, but whose to say that Civ 4 won't be a fun game anyways? All of the past Civ games didn't include such things as this and yet they still attract more and more fans to this site and across the world.
Firaxis is definitely not ignoring the already-existing community though, as their committment to modding clearly proves. The vast majority of casual Civ gamers will never go to a site like this, and most never even download a single patch. All mod work generally stays in the relatively small online communities. Civ 3 sold over 3 million copies, and yet between Apolyton and CFC, the largest 2 Civ sites, there are probably only about 20,000 Civ 3 members, maybe 4,000 of which are constantly active. That's only 0.13% ever even have access to the stuf that goes on here! Mods will not reach an audience much larger than that, even if they're very professional and popular. That's just the nature of the gaming business when you're mainstream.
quote:
I agree on that. If the developer makes the game highly moddable, it would be no problem. As I say, it all depends on whos gonna do the job. You seem to have some inside information, so can you tell us anything about that? |
What I will say is this: plans have been announced to allow the integrated use of the Python programming language as well as XML to allow powerful and flexible modding capabilities, with exposed functions allowing modder customization of map generation, combat, triggers/events, AI and more. Anyone who is attentive will notice that this is exactly what Soren said during GDC. So sorry, but no new info.
Long ways until Civ 4 is released, but well worth it. My 2 cents.
Last edited by Trip on 23-10-2004 at 13:38
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Gerar Dean
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Acá abajo
Sep 2002
time: 01:32
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OK. Of course, I will give Civ4 one opportunity (or two ).
I thnik C3C, even when add some goods to the game, is not better than PtW (IMHO). So, when I saw the ppt, and it makes me live my advertising times again, I feel a little scared.
I like 3D, of course. But I like Civ as an strategy game more than 3D. I understand, the graphics are what sell for now, but if the 3D is the only good to add to Civ3, well, I don't see the reason to buy Civ4.
And if Civ4 becames a less strategy game than Civ3. If it becames a "simpler" game, well, maybe I continue playing old games 
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22-10-2004 22:30
You just have to tell one day! 
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