26-09-2004 12:28									#271
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quote: Originally posted by Toby Rowe Is C++ still the most common programming language?

Pretty much.

	02-10-2004 07:34									#272
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Niptium,

Seems I have some learning to do then.

When did the French get involved in the Falklands?

I think the Portugese discoved this uninhabited chain of Islands in the 1500's, then nothing untill the 1800's when the UK took an interest- it eventually became a coaling station for the South Atlantic fleet of the Royal Navy, once Whalers forced the reluctant government to act.

But I'm sure the Norwegian Whalers also played a part in forcing the government to act on the Island group east of the Falklands. (South Georgia is one), and I bet the Argentinians were then not even an issue- I do know the UK left, resettled, left, the the Argentinians settled West or East Falkland, then we came back again etc. A muddled history, but I didn't know of any French connection! Have you any site to point me to?

It is however a mute point for me- They must decide to join a nation on the mainland 400 miles away, or become independent from the UK, the current situation is bonkers in 2000+.

I'll give an example of relics of colonialism and the modern world:

Pitcairn Island the BBC reported is having an entire UK court shipped to the island to investigate allegations of child abuse amongst the 47 people that live there. If they haven't already become inbreed I'll be shocked.

All the Islanders have condemned the UK government for "not understanding their way of life" Good.

So tell them to go independent- all 47 of them, but take the nippers away first. (I know nothing more). Bet ya Pitcairn was there for ropes for Frigates 200 years ago- inbreed abusers amongst the 47 it now seems.

Colonialism ended with WWII, but some nations are stuck with relic's from it. (I did/do love EU and EUII though!!) If 47 people tell us we don't "understand them", damn right we don't if my government considers it serious enough to transport an entire court by ship to the Island.

Toby

	02-10-2004 09:17									#273
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quote: Originally posted by Toby Rowe Is C++ still the most common programming language?

I forgot to mention that Java is becoming a strong contender and supposedly can do much of what you can do with C++.

(I've always been a Turbo Pascal/Pascal/Delphi fan myself )

	02-10-2004 10:55									#274
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Vince,

I reckon Trip has the key sentence:

"But you've only got two options. Learn C++ or take what they give you."

combined with;

"That and learning C++ and making your own game that fulfills all of your wildest dreams."

For me in the UK, I oddly dream of a "frontier" railway game set in the US, annoyingly an Austrian company (Boris games) was making exactly that in the early '90's, then JoWood also of Austria brought the company and that was the end of that for a game (they used some of the code for a cowboy game instead, but Boris Games and the idea both ceased to exist.

Another idea- A true depiction of the War of Independence- or the first Civil War- fascinating period anyway, but the Colonists split between expansion v native americans/colonial government attitude, but saddled with the lowest taxes of all within the empire. (An average Bostonian paid 1/40th tax compared to a counterpart in Britain)

Imagine going, as Washington, to a farmhouse to see if he might barter or be given some food, yet not knowing if the farm is loyalist or rebel.......

I await an honest game on this subject- A real history- Paradox (Sweden) of EUII fame would be good- The Swedes were honest enough to say "we don't wanna govern our new world settlements any more- who wants 'em? (England and Holland got em))

So tackling the War of Independence could be fun for them, considering how half-hearted the Swedes were at onsett.

Toby

	02-10-2004 11:46									#275
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I tinker with my own programs... though they become more like jobs than hobbies the more and more hours I pour into them.

	10-10-2004 07:19									#276
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Trip/Vince,

So after my ramblings, which code has a future?

Anyone that's interested in learning coding with game ideas fancy forming a club to encourage each other?- I'd love to learn but at the moment don't even know of recommended books to learn by- Trip and Vince!!

Toby

	10-10-2004 08:18									#277
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If you want to learn any language (and are interested in games) then I definitely recommend C++.

As far as books, I must admit I don't really know any good ones. I stopped by my local library to sharpen my skills, but a lot of my knowledge I've acquired through school.

Over at CFC there is a thread about Python, another language which will be embedded within CIV's C++, giving players the ability to modify a great deal of the game, including the AI and other important things. There's about 20 people signed up there, myself among them, with the goal of learning Python in order to be ready for when the game actually comes out.

That would be infinitely easier than trying to actually code a game from scratch. I've done it a few times and spent a few months on a game, and I'm still no where near done. It's a massive undertaking to make a real game.

	10-10-2004 09:21									#278
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Trip,

Ultimatly there must be a bunch of us that want to make a game, once we learn a language, learning to a level that allowed us to toy with a Civ 4 game if needed would be great, but shouldn't form a goal at start- that's for you lot to do.

My reasoning is thus; (this post was made at the JoWood forum for "Railroad Pioneer";

Thanks anyway for departing the information mate, however, this string of bugged code gets 1/10 for me- the 1 point is simply for releasing a title in a subject area unlikely to appeal to the mass market of 17 year-old morons like my son brought up on Playstations.

Heavy advertistising by a collective of PC game publishers advertising together at key periods will only help to halt the decline of PC games, as we are now only a couple of years away from the latest generation of parents accusomed to console gaming only. (The kids given a Megadrive in 1994 are the next generation of parents and the PC publishers need to act now-together)

Providing a uniform standard for Video/Sound card drivers must be first as a priority- it is the cause of so many problems, and both industries are contributing ultimately to their own demise.

Toby

I certainly want PC games to exist, but feel like all companies are ensuring ultimate failure- they can't even see the threat, let alone talk to each other, even though none are in competition with another.


Toby

Last edited by Toby Rowe on 10-10-2004 at 10:03

	10-10-2004 10:35									#279
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If you want to code games then C++ is the way to go for now. However, if you never programmed before that is a tough first language to learn. Start with the fundamentals of Basic (GW, Q, and Visual) first then try something meatier like Pascal. Once you are comfortable with Object Oriented Programming you may be ready for C++. Don't stop there - broaden your horizons with Java and something at a lower level like Assembler. After you get a handle on C++ just start looking for the books that explain how to do whatever you need to do (graphics, sound, DirectX, ActiveX, ad infinitum...).

	10-10-2004 11:16									#280
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Vince,

Thanks for the time- from what you say C++ isn't an option at onsett, so any idea's for books? If Amazon in the US sell it, then I can buy it in the UK. In order to learn at home, I need a book!! But C++ still seems the important one?

Toby (any reccomendation- I can't believe you were self-taught for a foreign language!!- coding of course).

It's a straight forward question that needs a straight forward reply- C++ or another, if C++ what books?

Toby

	10-10-2004 11:45									#281
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Nickoli, Herreson,

Who was the last person to improve the internal combustion engine?

Taking a great idea and making it even better is not a preserve of the Arms trade, of which Germany is an active member with tanks as usual: It's called progress, and to not not implement the best features from past models would be called stupidity in any language.

If your last Mark (MkI etc) was essentially great, would you try to design an improved version, or pretend that even the idea didn't exist in the first place?

Toby

	10-10-2004 12:22									#282
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What book to buy to learn C++ from scratch? That a tough one. Thats like buying a book on karate so you can learn how to be a black belt.

	10-10-2004 12:31									#283
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I would suggest using online tutorials to learn the basics of programming. The best language to start with is probably BASIC, though if you find that easy you could try something else like Java which has quite a bit of documentation and some good tutorials.

After that, go to your local library. I don't know any really good C++ books so I can't recommend buying any. Your best bet is to try out what they've got at the library and see how each works for you.

	10-10-2004 13:04									#284
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Cheers you two, no easy way out then to combine with my impatience!!!

I may be 41 but after viewing the self-destruction of the the PC gaming industry over the last 5 years someone must fill the void once the (share quoted) companies vanish. Our only other choice is consoles, I shudder at the thought, and would love to meet any programmer for console games.

Toby

	10-10-2004 13:35									#285
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I feel your pain Toby. Many times I wanted to learn more about programming for the same reasons. If I had more money I'd probably hire people to do the dirty work for me.

	11-10-2004 00:22									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Toby Rowe Nickoli, Herreson, Who was the last person to improve the internal combustion engine? Taking a great idea and making it even better is not a preserve of the Arms trade, of which Germany is an active member with tanks as usual: It's called progress, and to not not implement the best features from past models would be called stupidity in any language. If your last Mark (MkI etc) was essentially great, would you try to design an improved version, or pretend that even the idea didn't exist in the first place? Toby

Are you talking to me? I was opposed to Heresson, ie near you, in the discussion above, but it seems like you think othertwise?

	11-10-2004 18:16									#287
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@Trip, Vince: Basic isn't the best language to start with. OK, VB is better than the abominable goto-Basic from the past, but it isn't great either. Neither is Pascal. Java and Python are better languages for beginners.

@Toby: I started gaming on Gameboy and Super Nintendo, but a few years later, I only played PC games, and today I'm programming games in C++ for Linux (as a hobby only). PC games won't die that fast.

	11-10-2004 20:41									#288
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I mentioned Basic because there's a lot of support and tutorials and such for it. It's recognized as a "learner" language these days. Java, while well supported, has quite a bit more to it, and I wouldn't really recommend it as someone's first language. And Python... while neat, it doesn't have nearly the same level of support as languages like Java or Basic, which I feel is important for someone who is learning.

	13-10-2004 04:23									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Toby Rowe Is C++ still the most common programming language? I'm such a "gobby" git, and have been so annoyed with some Mk2/3/4 game versions, but whilst so full of idea's, I thought I should perhaps learn programming myself, at my age! If you say it still is C++- then that is what I need to learn? Toby

C++ and Java are probably the most two commonly used languages used throughout a variety of ways. Visual Basic, although, is quite oftenly used for pratical business applications.

Yes, having ideas is great, and it is the very nature which makes programming great. You can (try to) apply an idea you have in your mind and bring it to life through a program. That's precisely what I enjoy most about programming myself. However, these ideas you have may be such complex ideas that a few designers, tens of programmers, and even more artists all combine their efforts together to try to accomplish these ideas. Being an amatuer programmer, who more than likely will be working alone, you must not create lofty goals you cannot achieve. Your first goal as a programmer, in more specific game programmer, should be to create a console based tic-tac-toe game. From there you might attempt to create a slightly more complex game. It may seem boring and redundant, but you must first know the basics, which may not be all that easy at first, in order to even make a game like tic-tac-toe.

If you are serious about taking up programming, then I would recommend starting right out with C++ or Java. The only drawback with C++ is its lack of implemented API, essentially graphics and inputs, support. You must use external APIs, such as DirectX, Open GL, SDL, or Allegro. The plus-side to Java is that there are implemented APIs like Java Swing that you can quickly use.

For instance, I know little about Java; however, since it is easy to cross platform between C++ and Java considering their similarities, I first programmed my program (a time calculator) in C++ using the console mode (basic programming mode). Then I transferred the code to Java and used Java Swing to help me turn the program into a GUI. I personally like C++ more myself, which is in large part to that being my most knowledgable language, but I love the documentation and accessibility Java offers. Although, on the flip side Java is a run-time environment based language that requires you to have the most up to date run-times on your computer in order to execute the programs.

www.cprogramming.com, www.javaranch.com, and www.gamedev.net are 3 great sites to use as reference. If you have any other questions you can email me at kyleclark80@hotmail.com I'm probably not the most well acute person on this topic, but through my own experiences learning on my own I'm sure I could give you some valuable feedback if I haven't already.

Good luck.

ps I especially recommend not to take up learning Basic, QBasic, Pascal, Visual Basic, or any other simplified language, because they tend to teach bad programming habits. If you feel comfortable enough with your problem solving skills, then using C++ or Java right away should not be a problem.

	13-10-2004 04:41									#290
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I wouldn't use terms like API or GUI with non-programming types.

I don't think learning Basic is too much of a problem as long as you're recognizing the fact that you're only learning it for the basic programming concepts and not something greater than that.

	13-10-2004 06:47									#291
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Yeah, programming's rough. Tic-tac-toe took me a while, and a blackjack game took me half a semester in Grade 10 programming.

	13-10-2004 07:17									#292
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Thanks very much all!

I've saved this page to DT for reference, loads of useful info and views within it.

Sorry Nickolai if I slighted you, I actually didn't mean to offend anyone, It's never a proud position to begin from.

Techwins;

How easy is it to transfer your knowlege/skills of one programme to another? Are they really like a totally different language to each other?

Mentioning the other aspects/tools did lose me somewhat like Trip suggested might happen!
But, you have given me the names of utililies that programmers use to leap between programmes?

On a side note, what's the chance of a universal code? or are these codes actually owned by companies in competition?

Finally, I couldn't get any of the 3 links you gave to work, even using cut 'n paste, but no matter- the names are there now on the DT

Thanks all again,

Toby

	13-10-2004 10:22									#293
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No offending here.

	13-10-2004 10:34									#294
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quote: Originally posted by Toby Rowe Mentioning the other aspects/tools did lose me somewhat like Trip suggested might happen!

Just in case you're curious about the two terms I mentioned, API means Application Program Interface, and is basically how a programming language interacts with a computer's hardware in order to get things done (since usually the programming language you're working with won't be interacting directly with the video card, sound card, etc.). GUI is Graphical User Interface, which is basically the graphical side to programs. Buttons, text boxes, menus, etc. all are parts of the GUI. If you've heard of MS DOS, the GUI is pretty much non-existant... you enter everything as text and get text spit back out at you.

	21-10-2004 17:24									#295
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quote: Originally posted by tentaal >>I'd like to see the future in Civ4, but not that far into the future as ctp does... In Civ3 all the sciences are found too early in the game and you can make a l ot of monney because of that. This is not reallistic in the sense that in the "real world" we always search new technologies and spent monney for that.

The problem is that the hunter-gather stage is nonexistent. If there was a stone age, then we could explore a little more in the beginning. Also, there is no training period for a new technology. The knowledge is just absorbed and used perfectly from the start.

	21-10-2004 20:45									#296
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Sorry if this was answered before, but my eyes can's read 10 pages .

I'm a little afraid about Civ4. I've seen a lot of propositions (here, in CFC, and other forums) even me have made the mine, but I've readed in some place that the Civ4 team will ignore almost all of our wishes.

I'm really afraid. I've seen in Civ3 lost some of the good things of Civ2, and the same with C3C and PtW.

There are some good information about Civ4?

Thanks

	21-10-2004 20:49									#297
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You should check out that PowerPoint file they gave us, I liked what I saw.

	21-10-2004 20:55									#298
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@Nikolai: Your answer is to me? If it is, where is the PP file?

Thanks

	21-10-2004 22:34									#299
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Just the fact, ma'am

	22-10-2004 20:16									#300
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http://tinyurl.com/5492u