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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:32
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Had a little chat with Chieftess from CFC last evening and she filled us in on at least some vague details of the CFC election results.
Here you are:
PRESIDENT/VP:
GingerBreadMan - 1st (became Presiden)
bootstoots - 2nd (became VP)
OctavianX - 3rd (out of a job)
FOREIGN AFFAIRS MINISTER
Zarn - won in a "landslide" over some challenger she didn't mention the name of
AMBASSADOR TO APOLYTON
Goonie - won in a "landslide"
OctavianX - lost to GOONIE in a "landslide"
I tried asking her about other races, but she signed off before I got the chance.
I'm definately planning to ask OctavianX for any information I can get the next time I see him in our channel. It would be good to know who the people are in their leadership... knowing who CFC elected would both give us an idea of who we'll be working with and what the mindset of the CFC electorate was at the time of the election.
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While talking to Chieftess, she did all but say that we should do everything in our power to conduct diplomacy with Zarn or rely on Zarn rather than Goonie, since Goonie seem both quite flaky and has not helped relations with Apolyton. She expressed her concern about Goonie having the position and that she hoped Zarn, ostensibly his superior, would keep a close eye on him.
That said, however, the fact that Goonie (apparently anti-Apolyton) defeated OctavianX (seemingly pro-Apolyton) in a "landslide is NOT a good sign for the future of Apolyton-CFC relations. It doesn't necessarily spell the end for any good relations between our teams, but it certainly sends the signal that the bulk of the CFC membership prefers to talk tough with Apolyton right now rather than the more conciliatory manner favored by OctavianX. No doubt Goonie probably ran an election campaign touting OctavianX as Apolyton's "puppet" and whatnot as he has mentioned in chat even to us.
That said, I'm not necessarily in favor of rushing off to war with CFC... let's see how this plays. The CFC membership apparently favors talking tough with Apolyton right now, but that doesn't necessarily mean they intend to attack us in the immediate future. If they really intended to attack us and were SMART (which I doubt in the case of Goonie...), they'd endeavor to lull us into a false sense of security rather than piss us off... so it's unclear exactly what this means.
I know Zarn and he's certainly quite capable of being a nice and conciliatory diplomat, however. My recommendation is that we conduct as much diplomacy with Zarn rather than Goonie as possible.
As for their new President, I've heard the name GingerBreadMan from CFC multiple times, but I honestly don't know the first thing about him. I have at least SOME knowledge of bootstoots (new VP), but honestly not much at all. Anyone here who can provide us with some information on who we're going to be dealing with?
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:32
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At least now we know which way the wind is blowing at CFC, which is more than we could have said yesterday.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:32
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There are significant differences between this situation and the PTWDG situation. For one, GS's economic advantage was partially due to already having had our Golden Age. Apolyton hasn't had one yet, and still has an overwhelming advantage over CFC. GoW was able to trigger their GA against opponents who had either already had one (GS) or don't have their UU yet (RP). Add in an ally also in a GA. Leo's, of course, had to help (but then again, Sun Tzu certainly helped us, though not in the theatre of operations, but on our island homeland). The last difference is that GS was in the position of attempting to defend another civ, rather than ourselves, which in my opinion is more difficult. [disclaimer]I'm not trying to denigrate what GoW & ND have done. I'm responding to the analogy only[/disclaimer].
I'm not saying CFC isn't a threat. They are - but not a mortal one. I do agree that the election result bodes poorly for future relations and that we should be on our guard.
Here's a thought: is it possible that CFC might try and take a shot at us just as we're finishing off CGA? I don't think they would kill us, but I imagine they could do some serious damage.
-Arrian
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wervdon
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I think it'll be impossible for anyone to sidle up to goonie wether he knows them or not. Fact is he wants one thing and this is 60-70% (and I'm being conservative with that) of the land on this continent for CFC and we aren't going to give it to him.
Unfortunately, it seems we won't be having an ally in this game (unless its CGN), and we may as well just accept it and start planning our total (eventual) rule of this continent ourselves.
Either way our next steps are getting rid of GCA, securing both choke points, rexing like bunnies, and building a strong enough navy to discourage sneak naval attacks or attacks from the other continent. Once that is done, we can plan from there.
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:32
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I've been talking to OctavianX and Chieftess in chat just trying to get some information and I've been talking with people on our team in chat... I'm getting the impression, though OctavianX was certainly trying to hide it, that this election had a lot more to do with OctavianX the person, than it had anywhere nearly as much to do with policy.
OctavianX apparently ran for President, Foreign Affairs Minister, and Ambassador to Apolyton. He's been in the CFC government for a very long time and my impression is that he might have been a bit over-involved and perhaps perceived by some to be something of a control freak (not that that perception is/was accurate, just that it's something that some on CFC probably have/had).
When you take the group that supported the likes of Goonie because they genuinely want their Ambassador to Apolyton to "stand up for CFC" when negotiating with us rather than "constantly cave in" as I'm sure Goonie sold the issue.... and you combine that group with probably a sizable portion of the CFC electorate who just wanted to see fresh faces in power and felt that OctavianX had held too many positions for too long, the election results make a lot of sense.
That said, I'm sure that Goonie, for one, probably overestimates the strength of his own electoral mandate, though I'm sure a good segment of the CFC population favors CFC "standing up for itself" in negotiations with us.
What this indicates is that CFC remains a prideful team that, while they may certainly be willing to continue cooperation and collaboration with us, may be unwilling in the long-run to accept the reality of their weak status in comparison to us and may not wish to play second fiddle to us.
Given this, my recommendation to the FAM team is that, regardless of what we decide our actual intentions to be, that we do everything in our power to treat their requests and their stance on issues seriously (or at least pretend to take them completely seriously). CFC is a second-rate power that wants to feel that it's still a first-rate power. Treating them like they're still a first-rate power (despite the fact that we know better  ) may be the right way to go on this.
If someone like Goonie, though it may not necessarily be Goonie for our next discussion, comes to us and states CFC's stance on issues, we certainly shouldn't give in if we feel they are being unreasonable, but we need to do everything we can to "take them seriously" and treat them as an equal, even though we know they are not.
CFC has a wounded pride and, even if we're intending on eventually wiping them out, it is not in our interests to further wound that pride.
That said, we also need to stand our ground and let them know, sternly if need be, that we do not intend to be pushed around any more than they do. If we've claimed territory with the deaths of our own units, it's now our territory and they're going to eventually have to accept that. We can DELIVER this in a patient and calm manner, however, and let its reality sink in for them.
I'm relatively certain that the border disputes will probably calm themselves down once GCA is mostly out of the way and where each of our military forces are establishes where the borders will fall by default. The official situation will, of necessity, eventually follow the facts on the ground.
The optimal time to give CFC some freebies, in order to be "gracious in victory" is when we think the reality that they aren't going to get BoP or the lands in South GCA finally sinks in over there even among the Goonies. It's when that reality truly sinks in and their pride is at the highest chance of being wounded that any voluntary and charitable gesture on our part may have the most impact. "We win, but we're not going to be asses about it."
Well, that's enough rambling off of the top of my head for now. 
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Beta
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Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Arnelos
If someone like Goonie, though it may not necessarily be Goonie for our next discussion, comes to us and states CFC's stance on issues, we certainly shouldn't give in if we feel they are being unreasonable, but we need to do everything we can to "take them seriously" and treat them as an equal, even though we know they are not.
CFC has a wounded pride and, even if we're intending on eventually wiping them out, it is not in our interests to further wound that pride.
That said, we also need to stand our ground and let them know, sternly if need be, that we do not intend to be pushed around any more than they do. If we've claimed territory with the deaths of our own units, it's now our territory and they're going to eventually have to accept that. We can DELIVER this in a patient and calm manner, however, and let its reality sink in for them.
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Nailed it right on! 
quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
problem is I wonder what freebies we can probably give them that will make up not getting BoP.
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Yes - it can not be trinkets or we will not have met Arnelos' criteria above.
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06-12-2003 16:06
Hopefully all the work the FAM has put into getting CFC on our side won't go all to waste because one idiot gets elected. I definitely agree we have to watch CFC closely (not that we weren't going to anyway).
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