09-12-2003 02:56									#1
	BREAKING NEWS: Gore will endorse Howard Dean! Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Just saw on Fox News. Gore is going to endorse Dean! Now Dean is sure to lose. Maybe the Dems will try a Dean-Gore ticket?

	09-12-2003 03:02									#2
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Is Dean really a fiscal conservative?

The ads say he lowered state income tax twice.

If he is a fiscal conservative I'll vote for him. I can put up with his silly leftie ideas with little problem if he doesn't go raising taxes on me.

	09-12-2003 03:12									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Is Dean really a fiscal conservative? The ads say he lowered state income tax twice. If he is a fiscal conservative I'll vote for him. I can put up with his silly leftie ideas with little problem if he doesn't go raising taxes on me.

Lots of governors lowered state taxes in the '90s. In case you forgot, there was an economic boom then, and that resulted in lots more revenue in state coffers.

Re the Bush tax cuts, some of the Dems (at least Leiberman) want to keep those aimed at the middle class tax brackets - Dean want to repeal them all. Im not sure if that makes him a fiscal "conservative" or not.

	09-12-2003 03:16									#4
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Yay!!!!

	09-12-2003 03:23									#5
	Re: BREAKING NEWS: Gore will endorse Howard Dean! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Just saw on Fox News. Gore is going to endorse Dean! Now Dean is sure to lose. Maybe the Dems will try a Dean-Gore ticket?

Yeah, who'd want that guy on their team? He only got the most votes in the last election.

	09-12-2003 03:24									#6
	Suffering from ads?

Dean has no chance at all to beat GWB so long as he continues to promise to increase taxes. The last guy to run on THAT platform carried maybe one state, or was it two?

Dean continues to poll 36% to Bush's 49%. This gap has held steady for months. Dean has said nothing of interest to anyone but far left Democrats. But his tax increase package frankly scares just about everyone else.

I also heard today that a Kerry internal memo has concluded that the Kerry candidacy is finished. He was one of the few Democrats that appeared to be in favor of the Bush tax cuts.

The Democrats are painting themselves into a corner with Dean.

	09-12-2003 03:38									#7
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quote: He only got the most votes in the last election.

And still lost to Shrub. If Bush is a C student in Harvard, what does that make Gore?

His endorsement is the kiss of death for Dean.

	09-12-2003 03:45									#8
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Dean has a shot at victory:

1)Nader will have to die in some fashion, before he is on the ballot, or he will still get votes.

2)A fair trade conservative candidate will have to run as an independent. Buchannan might do this again.

3)Dean has to keep his mouth closed until november 4th, 2004. He can not be allowed to sefl destruct, His handlers have been asleep at the switch so far, with the confederate flag stuff, the metrosexual comment, the "i'm going to break into this club",etc.

Also Hillary may have to be taken out, it looks more and more like she will run.

	09-12-2003 03:45									#9
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If doubt Dean will win. His re-regulation might get him some leftist votes, but he'd probably get those anyway. This is again just going to appeal to leftists. He should win the Dem nomination like this, but as Ned said, he stands little chance against an incumbant on a raise tax platform. Pity, but looks like 4 more years of GWB for the US

	09-12-2003 04:05									#10
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boy is it going to be hilarious when the Dem's win in a landslide next year

	09-12-2003 04:09									#11
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quote: A fair trade conservative candidate will have to run as an independent. Buchannan might do this again.

Buchanan is a protectionist xenophobe, not for "fair trade."

	09-12-2003 04:12									#12
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quote: If Bush is a C student in Harvard, what does that make Gore?

Gore didn't do much better than Bush in school, his intelligence is really overrated, but he is a bit more knowledgable...

	09-12-2003 04:24									#13
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quote: Buchanan is a protectionist xenophobe, not for "fair trade."

Same difference .

	09-12-2003 04:26									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Sava boy is it going to be hilarious when the Dem's win in a landslide next year

I'd love it to happen, but I seriously doubt it. Unless the WoT goes really badly, a higher tax, more regulation candidate, standing against an incumbent who can be attacked for being unpatriotic will need a hell of a campaign, and GWB to mess his up, to win.

Highly unlikely, IMHO, but possible.

	09-12-2003 04:28									#15
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The only consolation that we would have if Dean were to actually win the WH is that there would presumably be a GOP congress there to tell him no, when he wants to start doing crazy stuff.

	09-12-2003 04:32									#16
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quote: Same difference .

Yeah, we all know Buchanan is a closet red.

	09-12-2003 04:35									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue I'd love it to happen, but I seriously doubt it. Unless the WoT goes really badly, a higher tax, more regulation candidate, standing against an incumbent who can be attacked for being unpatriotic will need a hell of a campaign, and GWB to mess his up, to win. Highly unlikely, IMHO, but possible.

I guess the right's propaganda is going to be hard to beat. Somewhere along the line, restoring our progressive tax code got distorted into higher taxes. It's funny because taxes for everyone under $375,000 income bracket would be less under Gore's plan. Not to mention health care costs, education costs, and the loss of jobs that are making things much worse than a few % of income tax would. I guess someone needs to point out that even though Bush cut's federal income tax a little bit (and giving billions to the richest) that other taxes, like state and local, go up because of a lack of federal funding for certain things and a weakened economy. I think people are beginning to realize that these dopey supply side tactics don't work and just benefit corporations.

Also, I think Americans are fed up with corporations running their lives. Teddy Roosevelt was a great regulation candidate who helped clean up a lot of abuses. I think Dean will do a lot in that respect. The people will have to make a choice. Do they want a candidate who will improve their quality of life? Or do they want a candidate who will leave the people powerless to combat corporate abuse and crony capitalism, relying on charities and the rich to give their pittance.

BTW, CNN reported a new poll showing Bush losing 49% to 42% to an "unnamed Democrat"... I guess that means the Dem's could nominate a cactus and still win.

	09-12-2003 04:37									#18
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quote: Yeah, we all know Buchanan is a closet red.

On that issue? It's the same effect.

quote: CNN reported a new poll showing Bush losing 49% to 42% to an "unnamed Democrat".

Which drops greatly when the Democrat is named. Unnamed party someone have no negatives, actual candidates do.

	09-12-2003 04:42									#19
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Sava: I agree, but I think GWBs position is far easier to publicise, and that Dean will be seen as a higher tax candidate by the people. I don't give the public enough credit to be able to see the follow on effects much.

And while that's true, other polls show Bush winning against every Dem nominee. It all depends on how the WoT goes, and if people get fed up of Enron style scandals and want it cleaned up. I can't see it happening, but I hope so.

A lot can happen, but I think GWB has by far the easiest position to sell to the people and is the incumbent (hard to run against). I think the odds are strongly in GWBs favour

	09-12-2003 04:43									#20
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quote: On that issue? It's the same effect.

Sure, the fair trade left and the protectionist right are identical. It's not like the left is arguing for fewer agrisubsidies or opposing the shoving of IP down the throats of the third world or is fighting for worker rights to unionize or anything like that.

	09-12-2003 04:46									#21
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quote: Sure, the fair trade left and the protectionist right are identical. It's not like the left is arguing for fewer agrisubsidies or opposing the shoving of IP down the throats of the third world or is fighting for worker rights to unionize or anything like that.

The effect the same... raising tariffs. The other stuff is just insignificant details. Why do you think the unions that protested in Seattle vote for Buchanan?

	09-12-2003 04:48									#22
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Kiss of death or a good thing? Is there anything you americans can agree on?

Really I should not try to learn your politics from Apolyton

	09-12-2003 04:56									#23
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VetLegion: good for Dean. Kiss of death for the democrats chances in gaining the White House.

	09-12-2003 05:00									#24
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quote: The effect the same... raising tariffs.

Which the far left generally opposes.

	09-12-2003 05:07									#25
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quote: Which the far left generally opposes.

So the Seattle crowd was for lower tariffs? Please.

'Fair trade' is union code word for protectionist tariffs.

	09-12-2003 05:13									#26
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A lot of them were. The last thing the Seattle crowd was, would be a monolithic bloc.

	09-12-2003 05:23									#27
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Xenophobic protectionism is fair trade considering what some of the other nations we trade with are doing.

	09-12-2003 06:06									#28
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Joe Lieberman must have felt punched below the belt by Gore's announcement.

	09-12-2003 06:21									#29
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Joe Lieberman must have felt punched below the belt by Gore's announcement.

This is the very bitter end for Joe.

Gore's endorsement of Dean while Joe is still in the race tells everyone who, or rather, what Gore really is.

	09-12-2003 06:33									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Gore's endorsement of Dean while Joe is still in the race tells everyone who, or rather, what Gore really is.

Yeah, that he'll endorse someone whom he shares more political beliefs with. Dean is much more akin to Gore in his stances than Lieberman.

Gore is probably also thinking about the trend (Dean emerging as front runner) and trying to unify the Democrats early behind one candidate to avoid the damage of a bitter primary season. The sooner a victorious candidate can emerge, the less scathed he will be. Since Lieberman already has 0% shot at getting the nomination, backing the clear front runner would make total sense in this regard.

Oh, wait I forgot--all Democrats must be evil, rotten people. Why not just have bot post "Democrats suck!" instead of bothering to post, Ned?